HISTSEX ARCHIVES: 21-30 Mar 2000
© Lesley Hall and list contributors
From: The Fawcett Library <fawcett@lgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Masturbation is healthy
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 15:52:32 +0000 (GMT)
One early 20th century champion of (male) masturbation was
Thomas Baty (aka Irene Clyde) of the Aethnic Union and
Urania - but then, he was original in a number of ways,
e.g. denouncing Kipling and Marinetti alike for their
machismo.
Basic information on him and his ideas is in _Rediscovering
forgotten radicals_ ed. Angela Ingram and Daphne Patai,
University of North Carolina, 1993.
David Doughan, Reference Librarian
The Fawcett Library (The National Library of Women)
fawcett@lgu.ac.uk
http://www.lgu.ac.uk/fawcett/main.htm
Phone: 0171 320 1189
Fax: 0171 320 1188
_________________
"Gentlemen and dogs not allowed beyond
the vestibule" (Sign at Pioneer Club, London, ca. 1892)
___________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 10:30:48 -0600
From: Bob <suannschafer@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Masturbation is healthy
The generosity of the intellectual resources of this list continue to
amaze me. You're all to be commended, for such an efflorescence of
-- dare I write it -- seminal masturbatory thought :)
___________________________________________________________________From: "Lesley Hall"<lesleyah@primex.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 17:00:55 gmt
Subject: Re: Masturbation is healthy
>
>One early 20th century champion of (male) masturbation was
>Thomas Baty (aka Irene Clyde) of the Aethnic Union and
>Urania - but then, he was original in a number of ways,
>e.g. denouncing Kipling and Marinetti alike for their
>machismo.
And Stella Browne (1880-1955), British feminist sex radical, was fairly positive
about female masturbation, in statements throughout her career (cf my article
on her in Women's History Review 1997)
Lesley Hall
lesleyah@primex.co.uk
homepage: http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Lesley Hall"<lesleyah@primex.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 17:03:52 gmt
Subject: Re: Masturbation is healthy
>>BTW, where was masturbation considered illegal, and under what
>>circumstances? I realise that under the 1885 Law Ammendment Act in
>
> I was actually thinking of the bans on vibrators and dildos, but some
>quick research has led to some other thoughts. Of course, to prosecute
>masturbation one must be caught, so exhibitionism is also a factor.
>Nevertheless, it seems that masturbation is an added problem to "simple"
>exhibitionism." In _Intimate Matters_, 2nd edition, by D'Emilio and
>Freedman, University of Chicago Press, 1997, they report "chafing his yard
>to provoak lust" led to a whipping in 1650 (p. 15). The Mormons
>criminalized masturbation, though at the time it was theocracy (p.118). On
>p. 122, they imply that some courts included masturbation in the legal
>definition of sodomy.
There is a case I found in one of the standard UK textbooks of forensic medicine
of prosecuting 'procuring an indecent act with oneself', but exhibitionism
seems to have been a factor - in fact the author seemed to deplore that masturbation
was _not_ illegal (but this is a ref I have to check)
Lesley Hall
lesleyah@primex.co.uk
homepage: http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 13:43:40 -0500 (EST)
From: "David F. Greenberg" <dg4@is3.nyu.edu>
Subject: Re: Masturbation is healthy
I doubt that masturbation of oneself in private was ever illegal
anywhere. - David Greenberg, Sociology Department, New York University
___________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 15:28:58 -0600
From: Bob <suannschafer@earthlink.net>
Subject: re: masturbation is healthy
Florence, this is the way I received your posting, which seems quite
interesting to read if it could be cleaned up. Have you another
version?
Thanks,
Bob
>Histsex:For historians of sexuality - http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
>
>hello,
>i don't know, but this (cf attachment) may be of
>interest to you.
>\par The Mastery of Sex through Psychology and Religion by Leslie D.
>Weatherhead. Student Christian Movement Press, London,
>1931} This brings us to the point where we may
>discuss whether masturbation is to be regarded as a sin or as a
>mistake.
>\par Having thought the matter over for years and read as fully as
>possible the literature bearing on the subject, and having discussed
>the matter with many friends, medical, ecclesiastical and lay, I
>give it as my opinion that the act }{
> in itself } is neither
>moral nor immoral. It is the non-biological use of a part of the
>body for the purpose of obtaining enjoyment. So is smoking. And
>viewed }{\i\fs24\lang1033\cgrid0 as detached acts }{
>\fs24\lang1033\cgrid0 the one is no more }{\fs10\lang1033\cgrid0
>\'93 }{\fs24\lang1033\cgrid0 wicked\'94 than the other.
>\par }\pard \qj\sl-238\slmult0\nowidctlpar\tx204\adjustright
>{\fs24\lang1033\cgrid0 I am quite sure that, for many people,
>masturba\-tion takes the bloom from a holy thing, namely subsequent
>sexual intercourse with a beloved per\-
>son. This, for many people, differentiates it at once and makes
>}{\lang1033\cgrid0 it }{\fs24\lang1033\cgrid0 a thing
>}{\fs10\lang1033\cgrid0 \'93 }{\fs24\lang1033\cgrid0 not done.\'94
>But some people hold strong views about smoking. I agree that mas\-
>turbation may spoil the sacredness of the sexual relationship, but I
>do not think we have any right}{\i\fs24\lang1033\cgrid0
>}{\i\fs24\lang1033\cgrid0 on that ground }{\fs24\lang1033\cgrid0 to
>label it as a sin when it is viewed as }{
>\i\fs24\lang1033\cgrid0 a }{\fs24\lang1033\cgrid0 detached act. A
>woman, who has shut her mind against the thought of marriage, tells
>me that, for her, there is no mental picture accompanying the act.
>On the other hand she says
> that it does deflect her mind from racking pain which she often has
>to bear. This may be unsound because it does nothing to ease her
>pain, gives her a
>false comfort, and uses up energy which she needs with which to
>combat the pain, but it is not to be called sinful.
>\par }\pard \qj\fi243\sl-238\slmult0\nowidctlpar\tx243\adjustright
>{\fs24\lang1033\cgrid0
>But masturbation is so rarely unaccompanied by mental pictures which
>the imagination conjures up that it can hardly be regarded as a
>detached act. And to my view whether the practice is \'93sinful\'94
>or not depends not on the imaginative pictures whic
>h accompany it, but on the way in which we deal with them. The
>pictures themselves rise, at times, to every mind. They are bound to
>do so when one remembers the strength of the instinct of sex and the
>little chance of using it all in normal life. It shows
>
>neither wickedness nor holiness that the thoughts should come. They
>come from the depths of the unconscious mind. The point is what the
>conscious mind does with them when they do come. We cannot help the
>callers who come to the doorstep and even ring the
>bell. We can help saying, \'93Come into the living-room and make
>yourselves at home.\'94 Masturbation becomes sin when such thoughts
>are }{\i\fs24\lang1033\cgrid0 deliberate/y entertained.
>}{\fs24\lang1033\cgrid0
>Self-control is being undermined. Sex adjustment is made more
>di\'f1lcult. Communion with God is being spoilt\'85\'85
>\par }\pard \qj\fi238\sl-243\slmult0\nowidctlpar\tx238\adjustright
>{\fs24\lang1033\cgrid0
>\par }}
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Marcus Collins" <Marcus.Collins@ncl.ac.uk>
Subject: Masturbation is Healthy
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 21:15:10 -0000
'The question of masturbation is THE super-eminent one in education.
Subject, discipline, order, games... all are vain and futile if the
masturbation question remains unsolved. Freedom in masturbation means glad,
happy, eager children who are not much interested in masturbation.' A.S.
Neill, of course (That Dreadful School (London: Herbert Jenkins, 1937), p.
109), which may explain why Summerhill is set to be closed down this week.
He was joined in his tolerance for (male) masturbation by such fellow sex
radicals as Bertrand Russell (Education and the Social Order (London: Allen
and Unwin, 1956), p. 81) and Norman Haire (Hymen: The Future of Marriage
(London: Kegan Paul, 1928), pp. 46-7).
Christian sex writers of the mid-twentieth century were more cautious,
Leslie Weatherhead recommending that 'Coverings in bed should be as light as
possible and the bed not too soft' to avoid overheating the lower regions,
not to mention the imagination. 'Feather beds', he warned, 'were invented by
the devil' (The Mastery of Sex through Psychology and Religion (London: SCM
Press, 1931), p. 147). But attitudes generally relaxed from the fifties
onwards, which Robert Chartham considered to be the 'most significant
advance' in sexual thinking of the modern age (Sex Manners of the Young
Generation (London: New English Library, 1970), pp. 12-16).
Hope this helps...
Marcus Collins
Department of History
Armstrong Building
University of Newcastle
Newcastle-upon-Tyne
NE1 7RU
Tel. (0191) 281-5545
E-mail: Marcus.Collins@ncl.ac.uk
Website: http://www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/marcus.collins
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 13:33:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Florence Binard <florence_binard@yahoo.com>
Subject: re: masturbation is healthy
sory about that i'll try and send you another
version!!
the text comes from 'the mastery of sex through
psychology and religion' Leslie Weatherhead 1931
___________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 09:40:48 -0800 (PST)
From: Florence Binard <florence_binard@yahoo.com>
Subject: re: masturbation is healthy
hello,
i don't know, but this (cf attachment) may be of
interest to you.
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 11:05:38 +1100
From: Ivan Crozier <i.crozier@scifac.usyd.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Masturbation is healthy
Yes, that is what I was thinking. Of course, exhibitionism--a different
crime--was often concommitant, but the 'solitary vice', when solitary,
would be difficult to make illegal, to say the least.
Lesley, I think that the forensic text which deplored masturbation was one
of the later versions of Taylor's _Manual of Medical Jurisprudence_ from
the 1930s, edited (perhaps) by Fred Smith. It also lamented that
lesbianism--importantly called tribadism (I think I recall, but it is early
here)--was not a crime.
Cheerio, Ivan Crozier
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 11:14:41 +1100
From: Ivan Crozier <i.crozier@scifac.usyd.edu.au>
Subject: re: masturbation is healthy
>From a previous posting:
"The pictures themselves rise, at times, to every mind. They are bound to
do so when one remembers the strength of the instinct of sex and the little
chance of using it all in normal life. It shows neither wickedness nor
holiness that the thoughts should come. They come from the depths of the
unconscious mind."
This should be considered in the light of my earlier posting with the Ellis
quotations, where a similar model (although less psychoanalytic) was being
used to portray the problems associated with masturbation, vis a vis, the
problem of masturbating was the mental imagery it used in order to reach
detumescence which was not involved in a loving relationship. This, Ellis
and others thought, could cause other sexual problems, because of the
difficulty in relating sexually with others. This was an argument which was
used a lot by people such as Albert von Schrenck-Notzing in his work on
hypnotism and auto-suggestion. The ironic thing here is that this was an
argument which Ellis repudited in terms of the aetiology of homosexuality,
even though he maintained aspects of it when discussing masturbation.
Cheers, Ivan Crozier
___________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 14:41:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Florence Binard <florence_binard@yahoo.com>
Subject: re: masturbation is healthy
hope this is better and readable! i scanned a page or
two but there is a whole chapter on masturbation
THE MISHANDLED SEX LIFE (masturbation or self abuse)
The Mastery of Sex through Psychology and Religion by
Leslie D. Weatherhead. Student Christian Movement
Press, London, 1931
This brings us to the point where we may discuss
whether masturbation is to be regarded as a sin or as
a mistake.
Having thought the matter over for years and read as
fully as possible the literature bearing on the
subject, and having discussed the matter with many
friends, medical, ecclesiastical and lay, I give it as
my opinion that the act in itself is neither moral nor
immoral. It is the non-biological use of a part of the
body for the purpose of obtaining enjoyment. So is
smoking. And viewed as detached acts the one is no
more " wicked" than the other.
I am quite sure that, for many people, masturba-tion
takes the bloom from a holy thing, namely subsequent
sexual intercourse with a beloved per-son. This, for
many people, differentiates it at once and makes it a
thing " not done." But some people hold strong views
about smoking. I agree that mas-turbation may spoil
the sacredness of the sexual relationship, but I do
not think we have any right on that ground to label it
as a sin when it is viewed as a detached act. A woman,
who has shut her mind against the thought of marriage,
tells me that, for her, there is no mental picture
accompanying the act. On the other hand she says that
it does deflect her mind from racking pain which she
often has to bear. This may be unsound because it does
nothing to ease her pain, gives her a false comfort,
and uses up energy which she needs with which to
combat the pain, but it is not to be called sinful.
But masturbation is so rarely unaccompanied by mental
pictures which the imagination conjures up that it can
hardly be regarded as a detached act. And to my view
whether the practice is "sinful" or not depends not on
the imaginative pictures which accompany it, but on
the way in which we deal with them. The pictures
themselves rise, at times, to every mind. They are
bound to do so when one remembers the strength of the
instinct of sex and the little chance of using it all
in normal life. It shows neither wickedness nor
holiness that the thoughts should come. They come from
the depths of the unconscious mind. The point is what
the conscious mind does with them when they do come.
We cannot help the callers who come to the doorstep
and even ring the bell. We can help saying, "Come into
the living-room and make yourselves at home."
Masturbation becomes sin when such thoughts are
deliberate/y entertained. Self-control is being
undermined. Sex adjustment is made more diñlcult.
Communion with God is being spoilt
___________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 01:46:08 +0000
From: Ianthe <ianthe@duende.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Masturbation is Healthy
In message <000c01bf937c$2b015a80$a701f080@default>,
Marcus Collins <Marcus.Collins@ncl.ac.uk> writes
Full text of:
_Canes, Berets and Gangsta Rap: Disciplining Sexuality In School, 1920-1995_:
http://www2.waikato.ac.nz/education/edstudies/middleton/canes.html
"From the point of view of the 'discipline of the
body' it would seem that Progressivism - which
rests on assumptions of freedom of choice,
intrinsic motivation, and self-discipline - is
in direct opposition to some traditional school
regulatory practices with respect, for example,
to students' dress [...] However, as Valerie
Walkerdine has argued, what happens is that the
processes of discipline, regulation and normalisation
become more covert: "the child supposedly freed
by this process to develop according to its
nature was the most classified, catalogued, watched
and monitored in history. Freed from coercion, the
child was much more subtly regulated into normality"
(Walkerdine, 1992, p 18). Within a Progressivist
school environment, she argues, "Discipline became
not overt disciplining, but covert watching... [as]
the classroom became the facilitating space for
each individual under the watchful and total
gaze of the teacher"."
Also...
_The Sensuous Child: Dr. Benjamin Spock and The Sexual Revolution_
http://mdma.mit.edu/henry3/pub/spock.html
"A provocative look at changing conceptions of
children's sexuality as reflected in advice to
parents on such issues as masturbation, "playing
doctor," and parental nudity. It traces the shift
from the anti-sensualism associated with the
pre-war work of behaviorist William Watson to
the celebration of sensuality and exploration
of the body associated with the post-war work
of Benjamin Spock and others."
But, hey, we've outgrown all that hocus-pocus now...
haven't we? Nope...
_Who says teenage sex is a health risk?_
http://www.junius.co.uk/LM/LM73/LM73_Taboos.html
"The latest official warnings about the 'long-term
health consequences' of adolescent sex about as
convincing as the old tales about masturbation
making you go blind."
>Histsex:For historians of sexuality - http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
>
>The question of masturbation is THE super-eminent one in education.
>Subject, discipline, order, games... all are vain and futile if the
>masturbation question remains unsolved. Freedom in masturbation means glad,
>happy, eager children who are not much interested in masturbation. A.S.
>Neill, of course (That Dreadful School. London: Herbert Jenkins, 1937), p.
>109), which may explain why Summerhill is set to be closed down this week.
--
Ianthe Duende
___________________________________________________________________Subject: Help on sources
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 21:03:54 -0600
From: "Michael J. Murphy" <mjmurphy@artsci.wustl.edu>
I'm teaching a course this summer on homosexuality and visual culture in
America after c.1880 and need some help on readings. I'm looking for
texts appropriate to an undergraduate readership.
Does anyone know of an article or essay on 1950s male physique
photography? Something on the order of overview would be awesome.
Also, I'm aware of a few essays on Tom of Finland but does anyone know of
essays on other related mid-century (or later) illustrators like George
(?) Quaintance etc.?
I'm also a little stuck on discussions of lesbian contributions to visual
culture, especially in the fine arts. Have some articles on pulp fiction
covers, film (of course), comics and photography.
Although I have only just begun searching out sources, any
recommendations would be gratefully received!
Thanks in advance,
Michael J. Murphy, M.A.
Graduate Student, Dept. of Art History and Archaeology
Washington University, St. Louis
mjmurphy@artsci.wustl.edu
"In episode #228, who or what is 'Foucauldian'? We have enclosed a
self-addressed stamped envelope for your convenience."
-Letter to Alison Bechdel, cartoonist of Dykes To Watch Out For
___________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 20:45:58 -0700 (MST)
From: Tim Hodgdon <Tim.Hodgdon@asu.edu>
Subject: Re: Help on sources
Michael:
Here are some random suggestions: first, see if your library
subscribes to the periodical *Heresies.* If so, then you
might use *Women Studies Abstracts to find interesting
treatments of lesbian-feminist art within its pages, and
then design a writing assignment around an interesting set
of articles.
I haven't looked at it in a while, but there's an anthology
you should check, too:
Lesbian culture : an anthology : the lives, work, ideas, art
and visions of lesbians past and present / edited by
Julia Penelope and Susan J. Wolfe.
Tim Hodgdon
Ph.D. candidate
Department of History
Arizona State University
Tim.Hodgdon@asu.edu
___________________________________________________________________
From: MillerJimE@aol.com
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 00:05:43 EST
Subject: Re: Help on sources
In a message dated 03/21/2000 9:04:56 PM Central Standard Time,
mjmurphy@artsci.wustl.edu writes:
<< Does anyone know of an article or essay on 1950s male physique
photography? Something on the order of overview would be awesome. >>
I don't know how brief you want it, but around the end of September, 1999
David Bianco did an article in his syndicated column Past Out, "What Were
Physique Magazines?". You can find the column in a variety of gay
publications in the USA, and it may still be available at www.planetout.com.
This column may be a good intro for your class. Bianco can be contacted at
DaveBianco@aol.com. He has the following in his bibliography.
The Complete Reprint of Physique Pictoral, 3 vols. Taschen, 1997.
Ellenzweig, Allen, The Homoerotic Photograph. Columbia Univ. Press, 1992.
Hooven, F. Valentine, Beefcake: the Muscle Magazines of America, 1950-1970.
1995.
This last entry seems to be what you are asking for.
Morgan, Tracy D. "Pages of Whiteness: Race, Physique Magazines, and the
Emergence of Public Gay Culture." in the book -- Queer Studies: A Lesbian,
Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Anthology. eds., Brett Beeman & Mickey
Eliason. NYUP, 1996.
Jim Miller
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Rictor Norton" <norton@rictor.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Mock Births
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 23:12:53 -0000
Sorry I didn't respond earlier to Lisa Hall's query about mock births --
which query has been answered by Peter Bartlett. That is, the Gloucester
incident is the one reported in David Rollison's article (which was
mentioned in David Greenberg's _The Construction of Homosexuality_ which
perhaps is where you read it.) You may also have read Ned Ward's account in
_History of the London Club_ (1709) in Greenberg, though the whole passage
has been reproduced quite frequently, e.g. in "Pisanus Fraxi's"
_Bibliography of Prohibited Books_ and in "Ivan Bloch's" _Sexual Live in
England_, both 19th century surveys.
The same ritual (lying-in) is described by James Dalton in _Genuine
Narrative_, 1728. The ritual seems to have survived virtually unchanged well
into the early nineteenth century. Sometime between 1810 and 1814 several
people in Clements Lane "near the new Church in the Strand were seized in
the very act of giving caudle to their lying-in women, and the new-born
infants personated by large dolls! and so well did they perform the
characters they assumed, that one miscreant escaped the vigilance of the
officers and the examining magistrates, and was discharged as a woman!"
(Robert Holloway, The Phoenix of Sodom, 1813, p. 28).
I seem to remember a similar incident circa 1850, but I can't lay my hands
on the reference. There don't seem to be any reports of this subcultural
ritual later than that, that is, until our own time. Homosexual mock birth
was enacted in some camp stage performances by drag queens less than a dozen
years ago, but it's doubtful that this is a continuation of a historical
tradition; it is more likely a political satire on gender binaries etc.
There are a fair number of very early prototypes: in the Renaissance court
of King James, in Plutach's life of Theseus, and among various ethnic groups
recorded by anthropologists. I would speculate that this is all part of a
single archetype, but the emphasis here is upon the word "speculation"!
--
Rictor Norton
mailto:norton@rictor.freeserve.co.uk
http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk/rcnorton.htm
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Lesley Hall"<lesleyah@primex.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 13:16:23 gmt
Subject: Re: Masturbation is healthy
>Lesley, I think that the forensic text which deplored masturbation was one
>of the later versions of Taylor's _Manual of Medical Jurisprudence_ from
>the 1930s, edited (perhaps) by Fred Smith. It also lamented that
>lesbianism--importantly called tribadism (I think I recall, but it is early
>here)--was not a crime.
Is this the same one that has the completely gratituitous (if not terribly clear)
illustration of a 'tribade''s clitoris? (makes one wonder who read forensic
medicine textbooks and for what purpose)
Lesley Hall
lesleyah@primex.co.uk
homepage: http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Lesley Hall"<lesleyah@primex.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 13:42:38 gmt
Subject: Re: Masturbation is healthy
'Prisoner procured the commission of an act of gross indecency with the prisoner
himself'
R v Jones and Bowerbank 1896 1 QB 4, cited in 1910 edition of Taylor's Principles
and Practice of Medical Jurisprudence. What is particulary legally interesting
about this case is that it was apparently prosecuted under the 'Labouchere Amendment'
of the Criminal Law Amendment Act, 1885, usually considered to apply only to
mutual male-male acts (rather than the acts, local by-laws etc to do with causing
a nuisance, etc, under which I assume cases of exhibitionism were normally tried)
Lesley Hall
lesleyah@primex.co.uk
homepage: http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Rictor Norton" <norton@rictor.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Male physique photography
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 21:21:11 -0000
Mike Murphy asks:
>Does anyone know of an article or essay on 1950s male physique
>photography? Something on the order of overview would be awesome.
There's a review article by Jesse Monteagudo titled "Physique Magazines: A
History of American Male Erotica", in the BadPuppy Archive, whose URL is
below (the last part of it may not be entirely correct):
http://gaytoday.badpuppy.com/garchive/reviews/Physique_Magazines.htm
(or just put some of these details in a search engine enquiry).
There's a better review also on the net, but I can't remember its URL or
author. Just put the phrases "Physique Pictorial" or "Athletic Model Guild"
into a decent search engine, perhaps the Rainbow Query search engine.
There's the book by Volker Janssen, intro to _The Art of George Quaintance_,
edited by Janssen-Verlag, Berlin, 1989. Part of his introduction, and at
least a dozen of the drawings/paintings of Quaintance are available (or were
once available) at
http://www.gladiator.simplenet.com/museo/index.html
Contact me off-list if it's not on that site anymore.
There's also an interesting survey (well illustrated) of vintage male nudes,
with some good biographical details about the photographers at
http://www.bigkugels.com/bigwelcome.html
Hooven's book _Beefcake_, already mentioned, is probably the best survey of
1950s physique photography. It's a Taschen art-format paperback and easily
accessible.
--
Rictor Norton
mailto:norton@rictor.freeserve.co.uk
http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk/gayhist.htm
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 11:36:35 -0500 (EST)
From: Stian Westlake <westlak@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Medieval Gay Marriage?
I was talking to someone (an academic but not a historian) the other day
who was adamant that Peter Brown had written a book that claimed that the
(high) medieval Church was more happy with homosexual marriages than with
heterosexual ones.
My first instinct was that he was mistaken: none of the canonist I've
read on marriage give the slightest clue that anyone orthodox was thinking
this. But I might be completely wrong: does anyone know what book he could
have been referring to?
By the way, thanks to all those who answered my question on eunuchs - I
have only just reviewed the replies as my e-mail was out of commission for
a while.
-----------------
Stian Westlake
Harvard University GSAS
==================
___________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 14:15:40 -0500 (EST)
From: "David F. Greenberg" <dg4@is3.nyu.edu>
Subject: Re: Medieval Gay Marriage?
Your source was very likely confusing Peter Brown with John Boswell,
author of a book entitled SAME-SEX UNIONS IN PREMODERN EUROPE. The book
has been quite controversial, to say the least. - David Greenberg,
Sociology Department, New York University.
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 14:28:47 -0500 (EST)
From: Stian Westlake <westlak@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Medieval Gay Marriage?
On Thu, 23 Mar 2000, David F. Greenberg wrote:
> Histsex:For historians of sexuality - http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
>
> Your source was very likely confusing Peter Brown with John Boswell,
> author of a book entitled SAME-SEX UNIONS IN PREMODERN EUROPE. The book
> has been quite controversial, to say the least. - David Greenberg,
> Sociology Department, New York University.
Thank you. I thought this seemed a bit of an uncharacteristic period for
Peter Brown to write on.
-----------------
Stian Westlake
Conant Hall 116
36 Oxford Street
Cambridge MA 02138
United States
T: (617) 493 7084
==================
___________________________________________________________________From: "Lesley Hall" <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>
Subject: Query about gender of Hymen
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 20:03:13 -0000
I've been sent the following query by someone not on the list and said I =
would post it here to see if the collective wisdom has any suggestions - =
please could you e-mail Jade Bar-Shalom directly with a response (and =
post to list as well if it seems interesting)
Would you be so=20
kind as to refer me to any sources which could be of help to me in the=20
following matter?
I am a graduate student at Haifa University majoring in English =
literature.
Recently I have come to question my literal encounters with the 'god' of =
marriage, Hymen.
Somehow I felt that Hymen should have been female and began to research=20
this.
We don't have as many materials available for such a project although we =
do=20
have one of the most extensive English language libraries in Israel.
In any case, I was pleased to discover in 'Woman's Book of Myths and=20
Secrets' that Hymen was originally a female goddess and the word 'hymen' =
also refers to a 'holy of holies' inner sanctuary which was forbidden to =
men. However, I cannot find any other reference to this and it is as =
though=20
a complete erasure of Hymen's feminine source has
been effected or that I will not have sufficient back up for developing =
my=20
argument. In quite a number of encyclopedias Hymen ends up being =
classified=20
as a sort of transvestite male for dressing up as a woman in order to =
follow=20
his beloved. As you probably know, he, his beloved, and her other lady=20
friends are captured by pirates and with Hymen's help, the women are led =
to=20
the brave task of overcoming their captors. Hymen is supposed to have =
been=20
very effeminate and beautiful and apparrently, like Gandymede,
was also involved in some homoerotic encounter with a Greek God (Apollo) =
=20
although these are not specifically detailed as consumated. In yet =
other=20
sources, Hymen appears to be a rather emasculated male bearing a torch=20
(perhaps to aid him in checking the virginity of his
subjects??)
It would be invaluable to me if I could get some advice as to where to =
turn=20
to get some proof of Hymen's original feminine gender and perhaps even=20
sexuality, and if there was a way I could trace how the goddess could =
have=20
been transformed over history and patriachal
culture into an effeminate and then a masculine god.
Would you be so kind as to provide me with some advice and leads to =
official=20
sources that would be academically acceptable?
I would be extremely grateful to you for any assistance you could =
provide=20
and would be happy to reference credit to you for any leads.
Thanking you kindly in advance,
Jade Bar-Shalom
j_bar_shalom@hotmail.com
Lesley Hall
lesleyah@primex.co.uk
website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Marcus Collins" <Marcus.Collins@ncl.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Male physique photography
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 20:31:28 -0000
>Mike Murphy asks:
>
>>Does anyone know of an article or essay on 1950s male physique
>>photography? Something on the order of overview would be awesome.
>
I really can't recall if anyone's already mentioned it, but the best thing
I've come across on the subject is Thomas Waugh's _Hard to Imagine: Gay Male
Eroticism in Photography and Film from the Beginnings to Stonewall_ (New
York: Columbia University Press, 1996). Guaranteed to bring a blush to the
cheek of the most unembarrassable of sex historians.
Cheers,
Marcus Collins
Department of History
Armstrong Building
University of Newcastle
Newcastle-upon-Tyne
NE1 7RU
Tel. (0191) 281-5545
E-mail: Marcus.Collins@ncl.ac.uk
Website: http://www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/marcus.collins
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 13:19:32 -0700
From: David Leitao <dleitao@sfsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Query about gender of Hymen
X-Envelope-To: UNKNOWN
Histsex:For historians of sexuality - http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
The entry for Hymenaeus in the Oxford Classical Dictionary (2nd ed.) reads
as follows: "It was customary at Greek weddings to cry "Hymen Hymenai' o"
or "o Hymen Hymenaie" (citations omitted). Rightly or wrongly, this was
understood as an invocation of a being called Hymen or Hymenaeus, and
various stories were invented of him, all to the effect that he was a very
handsome young man who either married happily or had something happen to
him on his wedding-day."
In other words, it is likely that the god Hymen/Hymenaios was invented as a
retronym from the wedding cry "o Hymen Hymenaie". Indeed, the word
hymenaios is a very old Greek word meaning "wedding hymn."
I am not sure I see the appeal of trying to make Hymen into a female deity
(especially in the absence of any evidence). I have not read "Woman's Book
of Myths and Secrets", but I suspect that the writer or his/her source
proposed a feminine origin as a hypothesis (fantasy?) to explain the
connection between our modern word "hymen" (which, incidentally, in Greek
can refer to the membranes which enclose the heart, the fetus, the eye, and
the brain, not, as far as I am aware, the membrane partially covering the
opening to the vagina) and the god Hymen/Hymenaios. Of course "folk
etymologies" such as this have a long history: already the Greeks
themselves were beginning to do this sort of thing with their myths.
One might find interesting reading in Giulia Sissa, _Greek Virginity_
(Harvard 1990) as well as her article "Maidenhood without Maidenhead: the
Female Body in Ancient Greece" in D. Halperin, et al., _Before Sexuality:
The Construction of Erotic Experience in the Ancient Greek World_
(Princeton 1990) 339-64. Both are relatively easy to find.
David Leitao, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor of Classics
San Francisco State University
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 13:45:36 -0800 (PST)
From: Florence Binard <florence_binard@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Query about gender of Hymen
In French the noun 'hymen' is masculine.
___________________________________________________________________From: "dave lewis" <daveyll@hotmail.com>
Subject: re: sexual health
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 02:22:52 PST
Thanks to everyone who helped me out with references re: this subject.
Your suggestions were greatly appreciated.
Cheers folks and take care,
dave
___________________________________________________________________From: Kazetnik@aol.com
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 08:32:34 EST
Subject: French Queries
Hi all
A couple of queries I wonder if your collected wisdom might solve for me.
Firstly, what was the age of consent in France c.1900? And, given the effects
of the Napoleonic Code, was it an issue of concern at all, in possible
contrast to the situation in Britain?
Secondly, can anyone recommend anything interesting or useful which
theoretically contextualises and/or critiques Bataille's argument in
_Eroticism_? I'm especially interested in his (apparently) straightforward
assertion that the sex act and organs are 'ugly', and that this is necessary
for sexual pleasure.
Thank you in advance.
All best wishes
Chris
___________________________________________________________________
From: Mal123nash@aol.com
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 09:38:03 EST
Subject: Re: French Queries
In his *Homosexualität des Mannes und des Weibes* (The Homosexuality of Men
and Women), Magnus Hirschfeld mentions that in France, under the Code Pénal
of 1810, art. 330, there was protection of children up to age 13, and up to
age 21 in cases of habitual seduction into sexual offenses; punishment under
the same conditions as heterosexual intercourse, thus, whenever (1) in public
so that another can see the behavior, (2) by force, (3) with minors.
Michael Lombardi-Nash, Ph.D.
http://www.angelfire.com/fl3/celebration2000
Karl Heinrich Ulrichs: 175 Years of Pride
http://www.angelfire.com/fl3/uraniamanuscripts (more on Ulrichs)
___________________________________________________________________Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 09:43:27 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Sibalis <msibalis@wlu.ca>
Subject: Re: French Queries
Re: Age of Consent in France
The Napoleonic Code (1804) is irrelevant to the issue, since it is a Civil
Code. The Penal Code of 1810 did not establish any age of consent. In
April 1832 an amendment to the Code created an age of consent of eleven;
it was raised to thirteen in 1863. It is now fifteen.
There was, however, a clause in the Penal Code of 1810 against
"encourg[ing] debauchery or having corrupted young people of either sex"
under 21. Its clear intention was to outlaw the pimping of boys and girls
under 21, but courts sometimes applied it in cases where somebody had
sexual relations with somebody under 21 even when there was consent.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Michael D. Sibalis
Associate Professor
Department of History
Wilfrid Laurier University
Waterloo, Ontario
CANADA N2L 3C5
(519)-884-0710 ext. 3141
msibalis@wlu.ca
___________________________________________________________________Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 09:06:50 -0600
From: Bob <suannschafer@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: French Queries
>There was, however, a clause in the Penal Code of 1810 against
>"encourg[ing] debauchery or having corrupted young people of either sex"
>under 21. Its clear intention was to outlaw the pimping of boys and girls
>under 21, but courts sometimes applied it in cases where somebody had
>sexual relations with somebody under 21 even when there was consent.
Hello Michael, could you please elaborate, should you have the
occasion, as to how the clause of the Penal Code (Code Penale?)
discouraging debauchery or corruption of minors? under the age of 21
necessarily had the "clear" intention to outlaw pimping, which I take
to be the prostituting of such minors? If I am wrong, please correct
my misapprehension, but I'm wondering if (one of) the effect(s) of
the clause was indeed your first conclusion -- *as well as* the
prosecution of individuals who had consensual sex with minors.
Cheers,
B
___________________________________________________________________From: Kazetnik@aol.com
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 10:39:43 EST
Subject: Napoleonic and Civil Codes
Dear Michael Sibalis
Thank you (and Michael Lombardi-Nash) for your help. Forgive my abject
ignorance, but could you instruct me in what the difference is between the
Napoleonic Code and the Civil Code? Has change occured to both over time? And
where there has been change, where does the debate/pressure take place?
Best,
Chris
___________________________________________________________________Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 14:08:53 +0100
From: Ianthe <ianthe@duende.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Homosexual traditions in the Balkans
Forwarded mail:
--starts
As-salaam aleykum,
I noticed your site on Islam and homosexuality including the bibliography
and felt you might be interested in another reference and some
nineteenth-century and twentieth-century source material.
I've done research on homosexuality in Albania and Kosova/o in the 19th
and 20th centuries, where, particularly in the 19th and early 20th
centuries there was a surprising tolerance and acceptance of homosexuality
among both Christians and Moslems. Though it has diminished from various
influences such as the Hoxha years and a desire to assimilate outside
views and thus appear more "respectable", the attitude has not died out in
modern times as I have found in travels to the region in the 1980's and
1990's. The religious composition of Albania is diverse, consisting of
70% Muslim (mostly Sunni with some Sufi as well (Bektashi)), 20% Eastern
Orthodox Christian, 10% Roman Catholic and small numbers of Jews and
Roma (Gypsies) as well.
For the mid-nineteenth century, a good reference is _Albanesische Studien_
(Albanian Studies) by Johann Georg von Hahn (Jena, Austria: 1854) which
documents the religious and secular customs of the time, as well as the
language, with terms for same-sex love, in detail and without the
squeamishness that is often found in western books of this period. The
book contains the Albanian text of a number of "erotische Lieder" (love
songs) by the Muslim author Nechin, son of Ali Pasha Frakulli. Nechin is
stated as being entirely attracted to men (i.e., homosexual, even though
the book was written several years before the term "homosexual" was
invented). The book contains a German translation, and my English
translation is available at: http://idt.net/~nickz/nechin.html
See also the text and references on pp. 10-11 of Havelock Ellis, _Studies
in the Psychology of Sex, volume 2: Sexual Inversion_ (Philadelphia, 1928)
for other useful references covering the 1880's through the early
twentieth century, particularly Naecke's article. The late researcher
John Boswell was also fluent in Arabic and discusses some history of
Islamic approaches to homosexuality in his books, as well as having had
personal experience from living in Turkey when he was younger E.g.
_Christianity, Social Tolerance and Homosexuality_ (1980) and _Same-Sex
Unions in Premodern Europe (1994).
In nineteenth century Albania, men and women would perform same-sex
marriages in both Christian and Muslim communities which were called
"vellameria" and sometimes "shokeria", though the latter term can also
simply mean "companionship" as well. The Muslim form of this involved a
blood exchange (blood brotherhood) rite where the fingers were pricked and
the partners exchanged a drop of blood. Though this also occurred among
Christians, the preferred form was the "spiritual brotherhood" ceremony
such as that found in Goar's _Euchologion_ of 1642 and 1730. The Muslim
rite that Hahn describes in 1854 was still present in Kosova in 1985, as
described to me by an Albanian Muslim resident of Prizren who I befriended
and became penpals with for a time; though he was straight-identified, he
had no reticence in talking about homosexuality to someone he barely knew
(in fact, I had more reticence in talking about it at the time than he
did). During a similar trip in 1991 I was informed that a gay marriage had
been performed at a newly-opened church inside Albania, in Elbasan (all
churches, mosques and other houses of worship were closed by the communist
Hoxha regime in Albania from 1967 to 1990, and were severely regulated and
partially shut down, with imams and priests imprisoned and killed, from
the late 1940's on). Talking with various Albanians in 1991, Muslim,
Christian and atheist, gave me the impression that homosexuality is not
generally disapproved of, and the attitude towards anti-gay violence is
that it is unwarranted: "we all eat at the same table". I should also
note that both in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries there seems to be
a good deal of tolerance and good relations between Muslims and
Christians, including interfaith relationships of various kinds; though
these did considerably sour in some areas in the 1910's and 1920's, and
we are all aware of the Kosova and other conflicts.
Other terms which are still understood to an extent in Albania and
vicinity are "ashik" and "dyllber", meaning "lover" and "beloved" in the
Classical sense, and also existing in Turkish but being somewhat archaic.
"Ashik" in Albanian probably is derived from the Arabic via the Turkish,
meaning someone aflame with love, and is related to the Arabic (and old
Albanian) term Nur, radiant beauty. Some examples from Nechin, all
referring to male-male love:
I mjeri ashik sa fort po duron, prej dyllberit po e dajne
('The poor lover, how strong he endures, for they separate
him from his beloved').
Dilli qi len ne mengjes, si ti, o djal, kur me zallandise
('The sun which rises in the morning, is like you, O boy,
when you are near me' -- the comparison of the beloved to the sun
in his radiant beauty being a common motif, and recalling
phrases in the Thousand and One Nights such as "the sun has
risen twice today").
Nuri yt, o Sulejman, bukurine t'a dha Zot yne, mos uban makrur
('Our Lord has given you radiant beauty, o Suleyman, (so) don't
become proud').
Kush te jet Turk me din islak, ashikun le te gezoje (Whoever is
a Turk of right belief [cf. Arabic "deen"], let him gratify his lover).
It is also interesting that Greece has adopted some of these terms as
well, such as "asikis" (=ashik) and "vlamis" (=v(e)llam, meaning either a
'chum', lover, or actually one who has been united in vellameria or
adelphopoiia as the rite is known in Greek. Similar terms exist in other
neighboring countries: a vellam is known as "frati di cruts" in Romanian
and there are also the Slavic terms "pobratimstvo" and "bratotvorenie"; in
all cases these terms refer to the "special brotherhood" created by the
above-mentioned rite. The Christian versions of these rites also can
involve terms like "cross brother" (e.g. stavradelphos), referring to the
lovers' practice of exchanging neck crosses. In all cases, this "special
brotherhood" created in-laws in the same way as heterosexual unions and
also conferred inheritance rights.
In the nineteenth century, these relationships were not only approved in
Albania, but even heterosexual teens who would later marry heterosexually
were expected to have same-sex boyfriends while growing up. In fact,
sometimes the best man in the heterosexual wedding would be the "vellam".
It is refreshing to see this kind of harmony, not only among and
between sexual orientations, but between religions, when we see so much
conflict in this area today.
--ends
Forwarded by Ianthe Duende
___________________________________________________________________Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 11:43:03 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Sibalis <msibalis@wlu.ca>
Subject: Re: French Queries
I've been asked to clarify my remarks about the French Penal Code and the
"corrupting" of minors. Article 334 of the Code of 1810 declared that
anyone who "shall have committed an indecency, by arousing, encouraging,
or habitually facilitating debauchery or corruption of young people of
either sex under the age of twenty-one" could be imprisoned for six months
to two years. Legal experts agreed that this clause, based on a clause in
the 1791 code, was meant to condemn someone who debauched or corrupted a
young person for the pleasure of a third party (in other words, someone
who lured a young person into prostitution and pimped for him or her); it
did not apply to someone who "corrupted" a young person for his or her own
personal pleasure.
Courts nonetheless did sometimes condemn individuals for corrupting a
young person by seducing him or her for personal pleasure. Appeals courts
sometimes overturned these convictions, sometimes not. (The French
judicial system is less concerned about precedent than the Anglo-Saxon
system, so in each case the judges could interpret the statute according
to their own logic.) This problem is dealt with by Michel Vincineau, in
_La Debauche en droit et le droit a la debauche_ (Brussels, 1985), pp.
25-42. I touch upon it in my article "The Regulation of Male
Homosexuality in Revolutionary and Napoleonic France," in _Homosexuality
in Modern France_, ed. J. Merrick and B. Ragan (Oxford, 1996).
I hope this helps.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Michael D. Sibalis
Associate Professor
Department of History
Wilfrid Laurier University
Waterloo, Ontario
CANADA N2L 3C5
(519)-884-0710 ext. 3141
msibalis@wlu.ca
___________________________________________________________________Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 11:49:06 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Sibalis <msibalis@wlu.ca>
To: "Histsex:For historians of sexuality" <histsex@listbot.com>
I have also been asked to clarify my remarks about the Civil Code and the
Napoleonic Code. The Civil Code of 1804 -- the first comprehensive civil
code in France, which unified civil law (marriage, property, inheritance,
etc.) for the entire country -- was named the Code Napoleon (Napoleonic
Code) by the French parliament at the time. It is still commonly known by
that name, although it has undergone numerous changes over the years.
There were other law codes promulgated under Napoleon, The most important
of these was the Penal Code of 1810, an updating of the Penal Code of
1791. This code deals with criminal offenses (murder, theft, arson,
sexual offenses, etc.) It is in a general sense "a" Napoleonic code,
since it dates from his era, but is not known as "the" Napoleonic Code, a
designation correctly reserved for the Civil Code of 1804.
This code, too, has undergone numerous changes over the years as attitudes
have changed, but the basic principles remain in place.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Michael D. Sibalis
Associate Professor
Department of History
Wilfrid Laurier University
Waterloo, Ontario
CANADA N2L 3C5
(519)-884-0710 ext. 3141
msibalis@wlu.ca
___________________________________________________________________
From: Kazetnik@aol.com
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 14:16:22 EST
Subject: Re: Napoleonic and Civil Codes
Michael, thank you for your clarification, which, if nothing else, alerts me
to the depth of my ignorance about French legislative history, and such a
reminder is always timely :) Chris
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 18:45:58 -0500
From: David Nicholas Harley <David.N.Harley.4@nd.edu>
Subject: Breasts in the US
Charles Moser's posting on masturbation reminded me of our earlier
discussion of attitudes towards public nudity and semi-nudity. Attitudes
in the US are indeed curious, on a wide range of topics, with hedonism and
puritanism, rights and duties, jostling and reconfiguring within the public
discourse in many different ways. For months now, there have been adverts
nightly on network television for videos that apparently show college girls
on spring break baring their breasts. These are also advertised on
http://www.girlsgonewild.com
As with TV news coverage of Mardi Gras in New Orleans, the nipples are
blotted out on screen. Whatever would Italian TV viewers make of this?
David Harley,
Dept. of History,
University of Notre Dame,
Notre Dame, Indiana 46556
tel.: 219-631-7789
___________________________________________________________________ Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 09:58:27 +1000
From: Hera Cook <hera.cook@history.usyd.edu.au>
Subject: Re: ugly genitals
Kazetnik@aol.com wrote:
> Secondly, can anyone recommend anything interesting or useful which
> theoretically contextualises and/or critiques Bataille's argument in
> _Eroticism_? I'm especially interested in his (apparently) straightforward
> assertion that the sex act and organs are 'ugly', and that this is necessary
> for sexual pleasure.
>
I have not seen anything theoretical but in relation to British heterosexuality
during the first half of the twentieth century I have no quotes refering to
genitals as visually desirable and several to the effect that genitals were ugly
- especially male genitals. My impression is that this is not so true of male
homosexual sources in the same period.
I have thought that this rejection of the genitals was particularly strong in
this period but I don't really know and I would be interested in comments from
other periods.
Could you give me a page ref for Bataille?
Regards,
Hera
_____________________________________________________________
Hera Cook
History Department
MacCallum Building A17
University of Sydney
NSW 2006
Australia
Phone 61 2 9351 2862, Fax 61 2 9351 3918
___________________________________________________________________Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 16:57:14 -0800
From: Jack Kolb <kolb@ucla.edu>
Subject: Re: Breasts in the US
>Histsex:For historians of sexuality - http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
>
>Charles Moser's posting on masturbation reminded me of our earlier
>discussion of attitudes towards public nudity and semi-nudity. Attitudes
>in the US are indeed curious, on a wide range of topics, with hedonism and
>puritanism, rights and duties, jostling and reconfiguring within the public
>discourse in many different ways. For months now, there have been adverts
>nightly on network television for videos that apparently show college girls
>on spring break baring their breasts. These are also advertised on
>http://www.girlsgonewild.com
>As with TV news coverage of Mardi Gras in New Orleans, the nipples are
>blotted out on screen. Whatever would Italian TV viewers make of this?
>David Harley,
>Dept. of History,
>University of Notre Dame,
>Notre Dame, Indiana 46556
>
>tel.: 219-631-7789
Can't resist forwarding the following:
==========================================
X-Lib-of-Cong-ISSN: 1098-7649 -=[ Fun_People ]=-
X-http://www.langston.com/psl-bin/Fun_People.cgi
Forwarded-by: Nev Dull <nev@bostic.com>
Forwarded-by: Adam Shand <larry@alaska.net>
Forwarded-by: Lorena Lara <lorenalara@arnet.com.ar>
In the last couple of weeks, I have seen the ads for the Wonder Bra. Is
that really a problem in this country? ... men not paying enough attention
to women's breasts?
-- Jay Leno
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 20:20:01 -0600
From: Bob <suannschafer@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: French Queries
Indeed your clarification was helpful. Thank you Michael. Permit me
one tiny further request for further clarification. I take by "Legal
experts ..." below, you mean legal experts of the time, i.e. those in
the first quarter or so of the nineteenth century, or do you mean to
suggest legal experts throughout the century, or?
With appreciation, B
>I've been asked to clarify my remarks about the French Penal Code and the
>"corrupting" of minors..... Legal experts agreed that this clause
>[in the 1810 code], based on a clause in
>the 1791 code ....
___________________________________________________________________Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 21:38:28 -0600
From: Bob <suannschafer@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: ugly genitals
>I have not seen anything theoretical but in relation to British
>heterosexuality
>during the first half of the twentieth century I have no quotes refering to
>genitals as visually desirable and several to the effect that
>genitals were ugly
>- especially male genitals.
Hera, would you be willing to share some citations/bibliography for
the above ... and the below .. should you have them?
>My impression is that this is not so true of male
>homosexual sources in the same period.
>I have thought that this rejection of the genitals was particularly strong in
>this period but I don't really know and I would be interested in comments from
>other periods
As would I. Is there a history out there, something along the lines
of ... "The Ugly Genitals: A Discussion of the Relative Beauty &
Merits of Male & Female Genitalia Over Time"?
:)
___________________________________________________________________From: Kazetnik@aol.com
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 02:42:02 EST
Subject: Re: ugly genitals
Hi Hera
The refs to ugly sex are in the 'Beauty' chapter of Eroticism, p.145 in Mary
Dalwood's trans, pub John Calder, 1962. Maybe I need a newer trans?
Chris
___________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 00:17:43 -0800 (PST)
From: technotoy <technotoy@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Napoleonic and Civil Codes
I'm intrigued to hear this distinction between the
Napoleonic and Civil Codes. Most of the literature
I've been reading about Germany, including some texts
from the nineteenth century, states that "the
Napoleonic Code" eliminated penalities for sex between
consenting adults. It sounds like these texts are
oversimplifying the matter.
=====
Robert Tobin
Conrad-Blenkle-Str. 58
10407 Berlin Germany
(030) 4280 3109
___________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 11:57:34 +0200
From: Gert Hekma <hekma@pscw.uva.nl>
Subject: Re: French Queries, Dutch age of consent
Dear friends,
as the French Code Penal was also the Dutch criminal law between 1811-1886,
the Dutch courts had also this discussion on art 334 (the habitual debauch
of young people under age 21), and there are several decisions published in
the Dutch jurisprudence. In general, the Dutch considered the French penal
law too lax on sexual issues, but many courts and lawyers preferred to
follow the line that article 334 was only about pimping, to stimulate the
minister of justice to come up with a new criminal law that was really
Dutch. Some men have however been punished under this article f.e. in cases
where men had sex with a series of young men that according to courts also
constituted the crime of "habitual debauch". When the Dutch got their new
criminal law in 1886, still strongly based on the French criminal law, they
first considered an age of consent of 14 years, but after a case involving
a man having sex with young men of 15 years of age had come to the
attention of the law-makers, they set the age of consent on 16 years. When
the Dutch changed from liberal to christian parties dominated governments,
the age of consent for homosexual acts went to 21 years where it remained
until 1971. Now it is 12 or 16: between these two, there will only be a
prosecution if there is a complaint of the kid itself, its parents or child
custody organizations. Because of legal problems concerning the complaints,
and because all pedosexual scandals that also plague the Netherlands, there
is a general support for bringing the age of consent in all cases back to
16 years (which is according to me outrageous in an age that children
become sexual beings at much earlier ages).
Gert Hekma
___________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 16:29:56 +0200
From: Gert Hekma <hekma@pscw.uva.nl>
Subject: Re: masturbation
Dear friends,
there is an excellent article in the latest issue of the Journal of the
History of Sexuality on the book Onania (1716), its background, date of
publication, medical context, author etc (it took a year to publish this
issue of the JHS but it is an interesting double issue from the new editors)
Gert Hekma
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 09:56:33 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Sibalis <msibalis@wlu.ca>
Subject: Re: French Queries
One more clarification about French law: "legal experts" means the writers
of law books both at the time (in the 19th century) and today.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Michael D. Sibalis
Associate Professor
Department of History
Wilfrid Laurier University
Waterloo, Ontario
CANADA N2L 3C5
(519)-884-0710 ext. 3141
msibalis@wlu.ca
___________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 06:57:11 -0800 (PST)
From: technotoy <technotoy@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Homosexual traditions in the Balkans
A little bit more information on the historical
awareness in northwestern Europe of these Balkan
traditions:
In a travel guide of 1778, Alberto Fortis claims to
have witnessed the benediction of both male couples
and female couples in the presence of the congregation
in the Balkans. He uses the language of "friendship,"
rather than anything explicitly sexual, of course, but
it is still a striking passage.
This reference is picked up by the popular German
author Jean Paul, who mentions it in his novel,
_Siebenkaes_, which was published in 1796.
Jean Paul was an important enough author in
nineteenth-century Germany that I believe that his
reference to this tradition may have fueled the
interest in the Balkans of the German
ethno-sexologists of the second half of the nineteenth century.
=====
Robert Tobin
Conrad-Blenkle-Str. 58
10407 Berlin Germany
(030) 4280 3109
___________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 10:04:02 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Sibalis <msibalis@wlu.ca>
Subject: Re: French Queries, Dutch age of consent
Gert Hekma's remarks about the Dutch interpretation of the French law are
fascinating. It reminds me of a case in France in 1904. A group of males
held an orgy with boys in their teens. They were condemned at their first
trial for "habitual corruption" of young men, on the grounds that there
were multiple incidents of sexual relations in the course of the evening
and that this was therefore "habitual." On appeal, they were acquitted:
the higher court found that the orgy was a single event and that
corruption was therefore not habitual...
I cite this just to show the problems of interpreting the French statutes.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Michael D. Sibalis
Associate Professor
Department of History
Wilfrid Laurier University
Waterloo, Ontario
CANADA N2L 3C5
(519)-884-0710 ext. 3141
msibalis@wlu.ca
___________________________________________________________________
Date: 27 Mar 2000 20:11:57 -0000
From: "Histsex:For historians of sexuality" <histsex-owner@listbot.com>
Subject: Usual invitation to introduce oneself
This is the rather irregular invitations to new list members (and anyone
else who has not yet done so) to introduce themselves and their interests
in history of sexuality to the list at large.
Lesley
histsex-owner@listbot.com
lesleyah@primex.co.uk
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Lesley Hall" <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>
Subject: Menstrual blossoms
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 20:58:39 +0100
I've been asked if I have any idea how long the expression 'the flowers' =
for menstruation remained current in the UK - would it still have been =
being used during the late C19th. I've no idea about this one - has =
anyone got any idea?
Thanks
Lesley Hall
lesleyah@primex.co.uk
website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 16:02:45 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Sibalis <msibalis@wlu.ca>
Subject: Re: Usual invitation to introduce oneself
In response to the invitation to introduce oneself: I don't think that I
ever did; at least, I don't remember doing so.
I am currently researching a book on gay Paris since the 17th century. I
am interested in the evolution of the gay subculture: i.e. where the men
cruised for sex, the bars they frequented, their evolving sense of
identity, and the development of a gay rights movement. I have published
a number of essays and given numerous papers on the history of
homosexuality in France, most notably an essay on the Revolutionary and
Napoleonic period in _Homosexuality in Modern France_, ed. J. Merrick and
B.T. Ragan (Oxford 1996), and an essay on gay Paris in _Queer Sites: Gay
Urban Histories since 1600_, ed. D. Higgs (Routledge, 1999).
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Michael D. Sibalis
Associate Professor
Department of History
Wilfrid Laurier University
Waterloo, Ontario
CANADA N2L 3C5
(519)-884-0710 ext. 3141
msibalis@wlu.ca
___________________________________________________________________
Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:12:26 +0930
From: "Rikki Wilde" <rikki.wilde@student.adelaide.edu.au>
To: histsex-owner@listbot.com
Subject: gay men, lesbians, psychiatry and psychology
Hi Everyone, my name is Rikki Wilde and I am a graduate student at Adelaide University,
Australia. At the moment my particular field of interest is in gays and psychiatry/psychology.
I wonder if anyone could help me with a academic journal articles in this area.
I am aware of the pioneering work of historian Martin Duberman in this area,
but I wondered if their are more recent journal articles. I am happy to share
my knowledge of Australian gay history and culture with subscribers. Cheers,
Rikki.
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Rictor Norton" <norton@rictor.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Homosexual traditions in the Balkans
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 08:49:51 +0100
The note forwarded by Ianthe Duende about homosexual traditions in late
nineteenth-century and early twentieth-century Albania was very interesting,
as was the website containing the mid-nineteenth-century gay love songs by
Neçin translated by Nicholas Zymaris. However, Zymaris is perhaps
over-optimistic about contemporary Albania. He writes:
>Talking with various Albanians in 1991, Muslim,
>Christian and atheist, gave me the impression that homosexuality is not
>generally disapproved of, and the attitude towards anti-gay violence is
>that it is unwarranted: "we all eat at the same table".
But an article by Arne Walderhaug in _Gay Times_ (London), March 1996, gives
a much more pessimistic account. Walderhaug went to Tirana, Albania, and
interviewed Genc Xhelaj, President of Shoqata Gay Albania, and other people
contacted through this gay rights organization. Article 137 of the Albanian
penal code, under which gay men could be imprisoned for up to 10 years, was
not rescinded until January 1995, taking effect June 1st. It is rumoured
that Enver Hoxha was himself homosexual, and when he introduced such laws
after taking power after World War II, it was not because he was against
homosexuality, or even because he though it was an example of "Western
decadence", but because, like a good Socialist, he wanted to suppress
traditional culture. of which institutionalised homosexuality happened to be
an important feature. Whatever the case may be, today (i.e. in 1996) the
pressures to conform to heterosexual expectations are as severe in their
effect as any law against homosexuality. Gays are fired from jobs or cannot
get jobs if they're known to be gay, there are no gay bars or cafes where
gay people congregate, the gay rights movement is largely a secret
organisation, unmarried people live with their families for economic reasons
and cannot really pursue a social/sexual gay life, young gay men are
isolated and still kill themselves when found out by their parents (as of
course is true in many "advanced" countries as well), for a woman to remain
unmarried is basically taboo, many gay people leave the country, and if the
picture Walderhaug paints is true, I can well see why. The article ends with
the words of a 38-year-old man (formerly imprisoned under Article 137): "I
feel privileged now that the gay association has been formed. They cannot
give me things like a job or a place to stay, but they offer me more:
understanding, friendship and support. ... Still, I feel the only way to be
free is to leave the country. That is my big dream." In sum: it is good to
know that ancient traditions such as homosexual marriage rites still survive
in Albania, but it cannot be long before they become ancient history.
--
Rictor Norton
mailto:norton@rictor.freeserve.co.uk
http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk/rcnorton.htm
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Sam Pryke" <PRYKES@hope.ac.uk>
To: <histsex-owner@listbot.com>
Subject: Alex Comfort
==================================================================
The following message was received at histsex-owner@listbot.com
and is being forwarded to you, the list owner.
==================================================================
'The Joy of Sex was the last of a long line of disastorous sex guides' =
said Bea Campbell on BBC Radio this morning of Alex Comfort who died =
yesterday, no doubt a very rich man. Seemed a little bit harsh to me. =
Any thoughts?
SAM PRYKE
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Margaretta Jolly" <jolly@moa.u-net.com>
Subject: Encyclopedia of Life Writing/Sexuality
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:26:11 +0100
Encyclopedia contributor wanted!
I am editing the Encyclopedia of Life Writing (to be published by Fitzroy
Dearborn later this year) and am looking for someone to write a survey entry
on Sexuality and Life Writing, of 1500 words. This entry should consider how
sexuality has been registered in and through autobiography, and as much as
possible, also biography, diaries, letters, travel books etc. It should try
to give historical and geographical spread, although will inevitably focus
on specific periods or examples. Case histories might also be appropriate
for particular discussion of the role of life writing in the representation
(and possible construction) of sexuality.
I would be happy to discuss the scope of the entry further, and full details
of the Encyclopedia (including a list of its entries) is available on the
website:
http://www.fitzroydearborn.com/london/lifew.htm
Margaretta Jolly
Editor
School of Cultural and Community Studies
University of Sussex
Falmer, Sussex
BN1 9QN
01273 606755
___________________________________________________________________From: Mal123nash@aol.com
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 05:47:03 EST
Subject: Re: Usual invitation to introduce oneself
Dear List Members,
I'm in Jacksonville, Florida, with Paul Nash, my partner since 1972.
We're interested in popularizing the life of Karl Heinrich Ulrichs, the first
known (and little known) Gay activist. At present, we are helping Lyman Hardy
of Buffalo, NY, to translate one of Ulrichs' works into French.
I'm also finishing up the English translation of Magnus Hirschfeld's "The
Homosexuality of Men and Women," a real door-stopper of more than 1,200 pages.
I wish you all good health and lovely springtime weather!
Michael Lombardi-Nash, Ph.D.
http://www.angelfire.com/fl3/celebration2000
Karl Heinrich Ulrichs: 175 Years of Pride
http://www.angelfire.com/fl3/uraniamanuscripts (more on Ulrichs)
___________________________________________________________________
Subject: RE: Homosexual traditions in the Balkans
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 14:49:52 -0800
From: "andrei-f" <andrei-f@goplay.com>
Ianthe <ianthe@duende.demon.co.uk> wrote on Sunday March 26, 2000 at
8:23am:
>As-salaam aleykum,
Alecum salaam!
>Similar terms exist in other neighboring countries: a vellam is
>known as "frati di cruts" in Romanian...
Speaking as a native speaker of the language, the term is: "frati de
cruce," and the correct translation would be "cross brothers." The
original meaning of the term is completely hidden in modern usage,
nonetheless the term is frequently encountered, especially in folk
tales describing close friendships between male protagonists. Had I
only known as I was growing up!
Andrei
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 21:11:44 +0100
From: Ianthe <ianthe@duende.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Homosexual traditions in the Balkans
Replies forwarded by Ianthe Duende - any more responses please go
directly, off-list, to nickz@idt.net, thanks :)
==starts
> Hi again, some responses from others...
>
Thanks, much appreciated! :)
> 1. -----
>
> >As-salaam aleykum,
>
> Alecum salaam!
>
> >Similar terms exist in other neighboring countries: a vellam is
> >known as "frati di cruts" in Romanian...
>
> Speaking as a native speaker of the language, the term is: "frati de
> cruce," and the correct translation would be "cross brothers." The
Thanks for the information; I was using a phonetic transliteration, and
have also seen the "cruce" spelled "crut" with a cedilla on the "t".
Perhaps it would be better to transliterate the last word as "kroo- tse"
or "kroo- che", when the "e" sound is not dropped. I assume this
variation is a dialect difference, and "cruce" is the preferred form?
> original meaning of the term is completely hidden in modern usage,
> nonetheless the term is frequently encountered, especially in folk
> tales describing close friendships between male protagonists. Had I
> only known as I was growing up!
>
Much the same situation in Greek, even though a 1991 etymological
dictionary (Tegopoulos-Fytrakis) is frank about the definitions of such
terms as adelphopoeitos and vlamis.
> 2. -----
>
> >Talking with various Albanians in 1991, Muslim,
> >Christian and atheist, gave me the impression that homosexuality is not
> >generally disapproved of, and the attitude towards anti-gay violence is
> >that it is unwarranted: "we all eat at the same table".
>
> But an article by Arne Walderhaug in _Gay Times_ (London), March 1996, gives
> a much more pessimistic account. Walderhaug went to Tirana, Albania, and
Yes, in 1993 Rex Wockner also reported on police beatings of members of
the Shoqata Gay Albania. I tried contacting the organization by fax and
e-mail in 1995; the fax went through and the e-mail did not bounce but
there was no response.
> interviewed Genc Xhelaj, President of Shoqata Gay Albania, and other people
> contacted through this gay rights organization. Article 137 of the Albanian
> penal code, under which gay men could be imprisoned for up to 10 years, was
> not rescinded until January 1995, taking effect June 1st. It is rumoured
> that Enver Hoxha was himself homosexual, and when he introduced such laws
> after taking power after World War II, it was not because he was against
> homosexuality, or even because he though it was an example of "Western
Then again, Hoxha was a diehard Stalinist who would brag that only Albania
follows the "true" Stalinist path while the USSR, China, etc. had deviated
and fallen into a sort of heresy. Not that he'd likely have used the word
heresy, but he sure could sound awfully like a religious extremist
sometimes, despite his atheism. And Stalinism did sanction the
suppression of homosexuality in the belief that a fully-developed
socialist state would have no homosexuals. I have also heard the rumor
that Hoxha was gay, and it wouldn't surprise me, as antigay legislation
and closeted gay leaders often go together.
While the government officially tried to suppress religion, it made
exceptions in some cases; e.g. the official book "Albania: general
information" published in the late 1970's by the government press would
brag about various old manuscripts such as Catholic masses from the
1500's, presumably because despite their religious content, they proved
that Albanian was spoken and written at that time. And some of the top
leadership had obviously religious names; I don't think there was an
effort to change that; e.g. Hoxha's name (hoja), Haxhi Lleshi (hajji, one
who has done the hajj), et al.
It is interesting how Daut, a Kosovar Albanian I met in 1985, rationalized
Hoxha's actions. It is true that even then, there was conflict between
the Yugoslav government and the Albanian population; a number of Albanians
had been killed in a Prizren riot in 1985. Albania was seen as the
motherland, despite who was running it (Hoxha had died in April of that
year and was replaced by Ramiz Alia, who at first followed Hoxhaism and
then gradually liberalized). Daut noted that despite Hoxha's Albania
having a reputation for repression, it was easier for him to go from
Prizren (in Kosova) to Kukes (right across the border in Albania) to visit
his grandmother, than vice versa. I recall being asked by a Serb one
morning as I was leaving Prizren, where I was going today. I got the
impression he didn't particularly like Albania and was right -- rather
than say I was going to Albania I said I was going to Zhur, a village near
the border. This got him somewhat agitated; he warned me that it was near
the border with Albania so it was not a good idea to go there and the
police would detain me. Needless to say, this was not the case (he was
probably just trying to scare me away from going there); the only thing
notable about Zhur (the last village before the border) was that it had a
bus stop with a number of people waiting, one of whom was a niece of Daut,
who I met later that afternoon (he surprised me by saying where I'd been
earlier, since he'd been talking with the niece from Zhur).
In any case, Daut was a practicing Muslim. How did he reconcile this with
Hoxha's forbidding it? He rationalized it: "all the religions were
fighting with each other so he had to ban them all" (whereas actually
interfaith relations there were rather good). He admitted that the
practice of religion was banned, but claimed it was still OK to be a
believer in Albania, as long as one kept to oneself about it. At one
point, I mentioned in passing the Geg and Tosk dialects of Albanian and he
became somewhat flustered, saying that there are no longer two dialects
but only one unified Albanian language, because Hoxha made it so -- even
though he gave me a tape of contemporary Albanian music (by Haxhi
Maqellara -- i.e. hajji of the village of Maqellare) which contained
songs in both dialects. However, he had no problem with homosexuality.
> decadence", but because, like a good Socialist, he wanted to suppress
> traditional culture. of which institutionalised homosexuality happened to be
> an important feature. Whatever the case may be, today (i.e. in 1996) the
> pressures to conform to heterosexual expectations are as severe in their
> effect as any law against homosexuality. Gays are fired from jobs or cannot
And the Albanian economic crisis of 1997 and the ensuing chaos could not
have helped matters. Interestingly, I saw a KLA member with his UCK hat
and red shirt at the New York City Gay Pride festival in June 1999; I
tried to have a word with him about the conditions for homosexuals in
Kosovo and Albania in 1999 but he was too busy discussing the
Serb-Albanian conflict and politics (unrelated to gay issues) with
someone.
[...]
> understanding, friendship and support. ... Still, I feel the only way to be
> free is to leave the country. That is my big dream." In sum: it is good to
> know that ancient traditions such as homosexual marriage rites still survive
> in Albania, but it cannot be long before they become ancient history.
>
It seems ironic and sad that the crises of the past few years may be more
of a threat to these customs than the decades of communism. While I hope
that those who leave will not forget such customs, I've found that
Albanian Americans who have been in the U.S. for awhile tend to have a
negative view about homosexuality, and the U.S.-born have no idea what I'm
talking about when I mention vellameria, even though everyone knows what
it is when I ask newly-arrived immigrants.
--
Nick
nickz@idt.net IC XC + NI KA
==ends
___________________________________________________________________From: Wilhelm Rosen <WR@ra.sa.dk>
Subject: Introduction
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 15:26:01 +0200
Dear Listmembers,
Having lurked here for a long time an introduction may now be appropriate.
For many years I have researched Denmark's gay history. Most of my
publications are in Danish; one of them a book on Denmark's gay history
1628-1912 (with a summary in English), published 1993. I am now working on a
book on Danish gay history 1945-65 (and other stuff).
Wilhelm von Rosen
dr. phil., senior researcher,
National Archives of Denmark.
email: wr@ra.sa.dk
___________________________________________________________________Subject: Re: Homosexual traditions in the Balkans
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 08:27:14 -0600
From: "Michael J. Murphy" <mjmurphy@artsci.wustl.edu>
I thought you might all want to be aware of this article in The Chronicle
of Higher Education:
* A CONSERVATIVE GROUP is pressuring the University of Michigan
at Ann Arbor to drop from its fall schedule an English course
aimed at examining how gay men form their social and cultural
identities. The American Family Association of Michigan
charges that the course is designed to "recruit and teach
teenagers" to be gay.
--> SEE http://chronicle.com/daily/2000/03/2000032704n.htm
Michael J. Murphy, M.A.
Graduate Student, Dept. of Art History and Archaeology
Washington University, St. Louis
mjmurphy@artsci.wustl.edu
********************************
Any victim of queer-bashing will describe how the bashers came in a group
and were all armed with baseball bats or knives--straight men have
*enormous* respect for the homosexual male. --Mark Simpson
___________________________________________________________________From: "Marcus Collins" <Marcus.Collins@newcastle.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 16:01:59 GMT0BST
Subject: Hello
By way of introduction, I work on personal relationships between men
and women in twentieth century Britain, have so far published a
solitary article (to be found in last year's History Workshop
Journal) about pornography and permissiveness, possess more than a
passing interest in sexology, advice manuals and marital sex and am
always intrigued to hear from like-minded researchers, wherever you
may be.
Best,
Marcus
___
Dr. Marcus Collins
Department of History
Armstrong Building
University of Newcastle
Newcastle upon Tyne
NE1 7RU
United Kingdom
Tel.: (0191) 222-6470
E-mail: Marcus.Collins@ncl.ac.uk
Website: http://www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/marcus.collins
___________________________________________________________________From: Swamp1800@aol.com
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:37:17 EST
Subject: Re: French Queries
Michael,
I'm in the midst of trying to determine if the probable homosexuality of
Pierre L'Enfant, who designed Washington, DC, in 1791, contributed to his
being dismissed from that project. L'Enfant was French and I'm speculating
that his partner was Richard Soderstrom, the Swedish consul to the US then.
So I am dealing with emigres operating in what is traditionally supposed to
be the land of Puritans and oversexed heterosexual Virginians. It's my
understanding that in 1791 the French decriminalized what we now call
homosexuality. If that was the case, I would suspect that there would have
been a reaction in the world press. However, I have not found any. Is that
because the French law was less than clear cut? or did world opinion exhaust
itself commenting on other changes in revolutionary France?
There is some indication that American homosexuals at that time went to
Europe, the most famous being Benjamin Thompson who became Count Rumford.
Would there be any reason for L'Enfant and Soderstrom to prefer to be away
from their homelands given what was happening in Europe at the time? I should
add that both L'Enfant and Soderstrom were considered "serious" men at the
time; that is, they came to US to get rich. They were never seen as reckless
adventurers.
My pursuit of this subject is being conducted on-line at the web site
http://members.aol.com/Swamp1800/Lenfant.html
Bob Arnebeck
Wellesley Island, NY
___________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:35:13 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Sibalis <msibalis@wlu.ca>
Subject: Re: French Queries
The message below does indeed raise an interesting point, which I had
never really considered: Why did the foreign press not comment on the
decriminalizaton of sodomy in France? My guess would be that it passed
unnoticed, at least in the immediate situation. There was a lot more
going on in France, of course, for the press to comment upon. But also,
decriminalization was never explicit, by which I mean that there was
actually no debate on the subject in the French Constituent Assembly.
As I have written: "In his presentation of the newly drafted penal code to
the Constituent Assembly, Le Pelletier de Saint-Fargeau commented that it
outlawed only 'true crimes' and not 'those phony offenses created by
superstition, feudalism, the tax system and despotism.' Although he did
not list the crimes 'created by superstition' -- meaning the Christian
religion -- they undoubtedly included blasphemy, heresy, sacrilege, and
witchcraft, and also quite probably bestiality, incest, pederasty and
sodomy. By dropping any mention of these former offenses, Revolutionary
legislation simply passed over in silence acts that had once, at least in
theory, merited the most severe penalties [including death]."
I know that by the 1820s English homosexuals were well aware of the better
situation in France, but I don't know when this knowledge became general
and when (if ever) other Europeans commented on it. It would be
interesting if our British, Dutch, German colleagues could answer that
question.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Michael D. Sibalis
Associate Professor
Department of History
Wilfrid Laurier University
Waterloo, Ontario
CANADA N2L 3C5
(519)-884-0710 ext. 3141
msibalis@wlu.ca
On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 Swamp1800@aol.com wrote:
> Histsex:For historians of sexuality - http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
>
> Michael,
>
> I'm in the midst of trying to determine if the probable homosexuality of
> Pierre L'Enfant, who designed Washington, DC, in 1791, contributed to his
> being dismissed from that project. L'Enfant was French and I'm speculating
> that his partner was Richard Soderstrom, the Swedish consul to the US then.
> So I am dealing with emigres operating in what is traditionally supposed to
> be the land of Puritans and oversexed heterosexual Virginians. It's my
> understanding that in 1791 the French decriminalized what we now call
> homosexuality. If that was the case, I would suspect that there would have
> been a reaction in the world press. However, I have not found any. Is that
> because the French law was less than clear cut? or did world opinion exhaust
> itself commenting on other changes in revolutionary France?
>
> There is some indication that American homosexuals at that time went to
> Europe, the most famous being Benjamin Thompson who became Count Rumford.
> Would there be any reason for L'Enfant and Soderstrom to prefer to be away
> from their homelands given what was happening in Europe at the time? I should
> add that both L'Enfant and Soderstrom were considered "serious" men at the
> time; that is, they came to US to get rich. They were never seen as reckless
> adventurers.
>
> My pursuit of this subject is being conducted on-line at the web site
> http://members.aol.com/Swamp1800/Lenfant.html
>
> Bob Arnebeck
> Wellesley Island, NY
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________________
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 11:14:58 +1000
From: Hera Cook <hera.cook@history.usyd.edu.au>
Subject: Re: ugly genitals
Bob wrote,
Hera, would you be willing to share some citations/bibliography for
the above ... and the below .. should you have them?
>My impression is that this is not so true of male
>homosexual sources in the same period.
>I have thought that this rejection of the genitals was particularly strong in
>this period but I don't really know and I would be interested in comments from
>other periods
Sorry my precise references on ugly genitals are out of reach just now - in an
attic in the opposite hemisphere. They are all just brief references - any
references to genitals were rare. From memory, as an example, 'nudists were
dragging red herrings or objects uglier still across the path'. In this 'objects
uglier still' referred to male genitals. The male writer was rejecting nude as
opposed to partially clothed sunbathing around 1925.
The impression about gay men comes from published sources such as Joe Ackerley's
autobiography and from the secondary sources. I remembered the quote above because
it is so direct and such a visually effective metaphor. That is very rare and you
would have to really look to get much - I think. Others may have better ideas.
Higgins, Patrick, Heterosexual dictatorship: Male homosexuality in postwar Britain,
(London, Fourth Estate, 1996)
Parker, Peter, Ackerley: A life of J.R.Ackerley, (London, Constable, 1989)94.
Hall Carpenter Archives, Gay Men's oral history group, Walking after midnight: Gay
men's life histories, (London, Routledge, 1989)
>
> >I have not seen anything theoretical but in relation to British
> >heterosexuality
> >during the first half of the twentieth century I have no quotes refering to
> >genitals as visually desirable and several to the effect that
> >genitals were ugly
> >- especially male genitals.
>
--
Hera Cook
History Department
MacCallum Building A17
University of Sydney
NSW 2006
Australia
Phone 61 2 9351 2862, Fax 61 2 9351 3918
___________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 09:13:16 +0200
From: Gert Hekma <hekma@pscw.uva.nl>
Subject: Re: French Queries
Dear friends,
I don't know about the press reactions in the Netherlands on
decriminalization of sodomy in France, but this possibility was discussed
in Europe well before 1791. F.e., there was a tract in Dutch that proposed
decriminalization of sodomy in 1777 which was published anonymously but is
attributed to A.Perrenot. It got an immediate response from someone who was
in favor of punishment. Beccaria's treatise that spoke out in favor of
decriminalization was translated in 1768. In 1795, after the local Batave
revolution, Gales wrote a treatise on the question if the separation of
state and church also meant that sodomy as sin was no longer punishable,
and his answer was no, because it was also a real crime. From 1801 onwards
new propositions of criminal law were made, and they all included (and this
will be the case until the 1840's) articles on sodomy, which were defended
by the leading authorities as very normal, although these authorities were
until 1813 dependent on France (the Batave Republic became in 1806 a
kingdom Holland with Napoleon's brother Louis becoming king (whose wife
again visited Sade's plays in Charenton)).
In legal debates, Voltaire's argument on sodomy that we can't compare a
Dutch sailor with a Greek man living in a sunny climate, could have been
the leading principle among Dutch legal specialists who often complained
that it was a scandal that the Dutch lived with the French Code Penal that
was too lax with regard to sexuality, and that the Dutch needed their own
criminal law that should be stricter. Although at least one of these
lawyers became minister of justice, that did not help much. The Netherlands
got a new criminal law in 1886 that resembled the French very much, also in
sexual affairs, but had a new age of consent at 16 as I earlier explained.
France had in the Netherlands since the revolution a reputation of
debauchery in which the old debaucheries of the nobility will have been
mixed with the debaucheries of the revolutionaries. Like in English,
everything French was considered to be erotic, and local debauchees shall
have gone around 1800 to Paris for their pleasures as they still did around
1900, and some still do today.
These ideas on France were still so prevalent at the end of the 19th c.
that the first (calvinist) christian party that was established in the
1880's called itself "Anti-Revolutionary Party" and its university was
named Free University which meant free of liberalism and the spirit of the
French revolution.
The point on the press is well taken and I think we have to do a lot of
research on what the press said about the decriminalization of sodomy in
different countries, also in France! I understood that the persecution of
sodomites in Holand in 1730-1731 led to many press reactions in England, so
why not the sexual events of the French revolution?
Gert Hekma
___________________________________________________________________From: Swamp1800@aol.com
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 14:16:13 EST
Subject: Re: French Queries
Gert,
The US press gave extensive coverage to Batavian constitutional developments
in the 1790s (the US panted for Dutch loans back then). I imagine they merely
copied and translated what was in the Dutch newspapers. Was Gales' essay
published in a newspaper, and, if so, when?
In letters and diaries in the US, the French are often characterized as
essentially different from Anglo-Americans. In 1778 a newly arriving French
general is applauded for behaving "with Ease & Dignity without any of the
foppish airs of your low bred French men." In 1785 as he mixed with New York
society after a childhood mostly in Europe, the young John Quincy Adams met
Pierre L'Enfant and wrote in his diary that he "appears to be a sensible
man." A week later he wrote that L'Enfant was "a true frenchman." What ever
that means. James Greenleaf, the American stock and land speculator, hired a
number of French assistants, that his brother-in-law Noah Webster, the
lexicographer, described at a "long train of whores and rogues." All that was
private. On the other hand, transgressions of local morality by the French
seems to have been tolerated. While in Philadelphia, Talleyrand squired his
mistress in public. French-born Stephen Girard, who became the richest man in
America, lived with a mistress for years.
William Cobbett, one of the best writers in English at that time, often had
occasion to lampoon the pro-French clubs formed in the US in the 1790s. He
poked fun at the lavish reception of the French minister, Citizen Genet: "It
is beyond the power of figures or words to express the hugs and kisses that
were lavished on Citizen Genet.... Such was their eagerness to obtain
precedence on this joyful occasion, that very few parts, if any, of the
Citizen's body, escaped a salute; and before he arrives safe at the 'Capitol'
of some places, he was licked as clean as a bear at three hours after being
whelped." Cobbett also ridicules the pro-French Democratic Society where
there were "gander-frolicks, and... squeezing, and hugging, and kissing one
another."
Perhaps, in the libertine 1790s it was out of fashion to call someone a
sodomite. I've set for myself the daunting task of sifting the sermons of the
era - so far just one vague reference to Sodom and Gomorrah
Bob Arnebeck
___________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 10:04:39 +0100
From: cristina santos <cristina@sonata.fe.uc.pt>
Subject: TRANSSEXUAL/TRANSGENDER ISSUES
Hi. Once again I'm sending information I got from another mailing list.
Hope you find it useful, at least for some!
Geetings to all of you,
Cris
>X-Authentication-Warning: sunburn.ccs.yorku.ca: jnoble owned process doing
-bs
>Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 10:43:21 -0500 (EST)
>X-Sender: jnoble@sunburn.ccs.yorku.ca
>Subject: FIREWEED: Revised Call for Submissions & Extended Deadline (fwd)
>From: Jean Noble <jnoble@yorku.ca>
>To: iassc@mailbase.ac.uk
>X-Unsub: To leave, send text 'leave iassc' to mailbase@mailbase.ac.uk
>Reply-To: Jean Noble <jnoble@yorku.ca>
>Sender: iassc-request@mailbase.ac.uk
>
>
>
>please re-post. thanks, bobby
>
>
>
>
>>Fireweed: A Feminist Quarterly of Writing, Politics, Art & Culture invites
>>submissions for:
>>
>>AN ISSUE ON TRANSSEXUAL/TRANSGENDER ISSUES
>>
>>Calling all trans-folks, transgenders, transssexuals, MTFs, FTMs,
>>transformed women and men, boychicks, true spirits, intersexuals,
>>pansexuals, gender outlaws, and all those who love and support people of
>>transsexual/transgender identity.
>>
>>This special issue of Fireweed will provide a space for a wide range of
>>questions, stories, discussions, images, debates, musings, art,
>>photography,
>>personal experiences, analysis, and so on related to our experiences of
>>being transsexual/transgendered, or in some way at odds with the sex or
>>gender assigned to us at birth.
>>
>>We are looking for: personal narratives, interviews, poetry, fictional
>>accounts, visual images and representations, cultural and political
>>analysis, related to transsexual/transgender themes.
>>
>>Our purpose is to reach out to each other and provide a forum for
>>discussion
>>and representation of our issues; to educate various communities about our
>>lives and struggles, as well as our strategies and resources; and to act as
>>a catalyst to bring together transsexual/transgender individuals whose
>>different
>>relationships to race, class, sexuality, gender and ability have
>>intensified
>>our social and political lives.
>>
>>Stories, essays, prose, poems, and experimental work welcome. We will also
>>be delighted to receive artwork, photography, and other visuals. Please
>>send
>>only slides or photographs, no originals.
>>
>>Submission deadline: April 30th, 2000.
>>
>>Inquiries: (416)504-1339
>>
>>Please send submissions to: (mail) PO Box 279, Station B, Toronto, Ontario,
>>Canada, M5T 2W2; or (email) <fireweed@web.net>
>>
>>If snail mailing: please include a SASE (self-addressed stamped envelope)
>>and a diskette copy.
>>Format for electronic submissions: Macintosh: Microsoft Word 5 or 6; PC:
>>Microsoft Word, saved as RTF (rich text format).
Ana Cristina Santos
Centre for Social Studies
Apartado 3087
3001-401 Coimbra - Portugal
Phone 00 351 239855583
___________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 13:01:03 +0200
From: Gert Hekma <hekma@pscw.uva.nl>
Subject: Re: French Queries
Dear Bob,
the text of Gales was published as a pamphlet. There is very little
research on newspapers and other journals in the Netherlands re
homosexuality; although Theo van der Meer and Myriam Everard used some
yellow press material for the late 18th century concerning lesbian
relations in the Jordaan (vicinity of Amsterdam), and I myself similar
material of the late 19th-century to locate same-sex meeting places. More
extensive research has however not been done, and neither on Dutch art
history (that would be a good topic) nor much on the sermons you are
referring to except for those anti-sodomitical books that were published by
clergymen at the time of the sodomy prosecutions in the Republic.
Gert Hekma
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