Histsex archives November 2000

HISTSEX ARCHIVES: November 2000

From: "Philip Stokes" <philip.stokes@btinternet.com>

Subject: Re: [histsex] "whinge" about voyeurism

Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 19:17:02 -0000

The point about the legend, here, is in the way Anthony Powell used it in

the context of his fiction to provide a still centre around which the

voyeuristic tendencies of certain characters could be considered, and

evolve. To fully unpick his tapestry would be a major project, given the

proportions of "Dance," but I think that allowing the availability of time,

the project might be seen as worthwhile.

Dr Philip Stokes

philip.stokes@btinternet.com

----- Original Message -----

From: <MillerJimE@aol.com>

To: <histsex@listbot.com>

Sent: 31 October 2000 05:21

Subject: Re: [histsex] "whinge" about voyeurism

> Histsex:For historians of sexuality -

http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah/listinf.htm

>> i.dalley-crozier@wellcome.ac.uk writes:

> << Of course, the original--or at least an early--discussion of

"Candaules

> and

> Giges" is in the first book of Herodotus, but the question remains, is

this

> voyeurism, or a matter of 'my woman is pretty cute, huh?' >>

>> But Gyges is carefully placed as a non-voyeur because he is under

duress.

> In fact, he is under duress twice, first the king forces him to watch the

> wife then the wife forces him to kill the king. Instead the king is an

> exhibitionist. He is not so much an exhibitionist of his own body but

rather

> that of his sexual partner and property -- his wife.

> Voyeurism and exhibitionism both depend on a certain level of

illicitness

> in the viewing. In voyeurism the viewer sees what is not to be seen. In

> exhibitionism the viewed displays what is not to be seen. The viewing is

> still illicit, but the illicitness is transgressed by the displayer rather

> than the viewer.

> Jim Miller

>>> ___________________________________________________________________

From: "Colin Shingleton" <cshingleton@bigpond.com>

Subject: Re: [histsex] "Near Sex" again & "the active question "how do we come to terms with the myriad of sexual variations?"

Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 03:51:20 +1100

I think the answers to these questions are difficult to arrive at without

fundamental rethinking of the way we do the world.

A bit about me. I have recently begun to tune in to your exchanges. I am an

artist [painter] who is a PhD candidate in Cultural Studies at Monash

University in Melbourne altho my writing and my MA are in philosophy.

My reason for going back to university was to gain a handle on post

modernity, post modern art and where to art after postmodernity..

My project began more or less by examining Heidegger's end to the

metaphysical tradition and progressed to examining Derrida's use of

deconstruction to interrogate texts subverted by the metaphysics of

presence and logocentrism.

During the course of this work I have had to understand the permutations

which the concept of truth has undergone in the philosophical tradition and

to determine how the changes have effected moral behaviour.

I am not certain that the central postmodern explanation of just action via

Levinas gives the moment of deconstructive decision the ethical authority it

is meant to.

Nor do I think that the weakening of truth which the cultural relativism of

popularist post modernism uses to justify tolerance succeeds.

Indeed it would seem that the weakening of truth which seems to go hand in

hand with increasing social flexibility has the possibility to lead to the

justification of asocial behaviour including sexual aberration. It certainly

has lead to the exploration of sexual and other aberrant behaviour in art eg

Poppy Brite's "Exquisite Corpse", films like "Silence of the Lambs", "Eyes

wide shut", "Salo" etc.

I guess what I am getting at without indicating towards where a solution

might be found is that the criticism of the project of the enlightenment has

let loose theoretical explorations of certain species denying behaviour and

pointed out that our social theory cant deal with them either theoretically

or socially.

This seems to me to be to do with its inability to theorise evil. We have to

come up with an understanding of our right to do wrong. And while it is very

nice to study that in the arts... I could list other examples... unless we

understand that we will continue to define wrong sexual or whatever and to

intercede where we have no real reason to intercede in a politically

capricious way.

The heart of that problem is to take on board the postmodern criticism of

modernity and to move beyong postmodern metaphysics to one which permits a

notion of truth to be developed which is as solid as modernist truth and as

flexible as post modern truth. Et cetera

Wish you had never asked?

Original Message -----

From: "Jencks" <jencks4@home.com>

To: "Histsex:For historians of sexuality" <histsex@listbot.com>

Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2000 5:05 PM

Subject: Re: [histsex] "Near Sex" again & "the active question "how do we

come to terms with the myriad of sexual variations?"

Histsex:For historians of sexuality -

http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah/listinf.htm

Great questions. And by the way, it is often more important to ask the

right questions than it is to answer the same old questions. Keep talking.

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Colin Shingleton <cshingleton@bigpond.com>

> To: Histsex:For historians of sexuality <histsex@listbot.com>

> Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2000 6:45 PM

> Subject: [histsex] "Near Sex" again & "the active question "how do we come

> to terms with the myriad of sexual variations?"

Histsex:For historians of sexuality -

http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah/listinf.htm

If I can go back to the old question, near sex, and to the newer question

of " the myriad of sexual variations?" just raised.:

Firstly I have had further thoughts on the term "Near sex" . It is a bad

term. It almost begs the question that some kind of penetration or climactic

experience is the goal of sex and any preparatory or other behaviour heading

in that direction is more or less near or not sexual. Would it be that

intention needs to be factored in somehow?

Even so how does that include one sided sex i.e. in the case of unwanted or

unacknowledged or unrecognised advance. Then again there is the

wanted-unwanted sexual experience i.e. masochistic sex? In such cases does

sexual intention to allow pain to oneself replace consent which might by

definition be absent from masochistic sex or might of necessity be absent

from masochistic sex? And again when does the law have a right to enter or

society a right to legislate what two people do even when they are hurt?

Does a lack of preparedness to press charges imply consent? Does presenting

charges in the case of consentless sex mean that the aggrieved masochist

didn't at some level want the sexual damage done to him or her? Do we start

from killing as part of sex and work back to what is acceptable? Then do the

laws covering assault take over?

Secondly If the question is changed from identifying the myriad of sexual

variations or enumerating what counts as near sex which could include tying

a sandshoe lace and looked at characterising the contextualistaion of

intentional and unintentional sexual activity, we might be better placed to

study examples of sexual behaviour or kinds of sexual behaviour when our

agenda is to understand the legal moral normative etc implications of it.

___________________________________________________________________

Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 19:01:35 -0800

From: Jack Kolb <kolb@ucla.edu>

Subject: [histsex] Fwd: Homosexual code words

Can someone here help Katie? JK

>Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 18:24:57 -0400

>From: khindmar <khindmar@IS2.DAL.CA>

>Subject: Homosexual code words

>Sender: VICTORIA 19th-Century British Culture & Society

> <VICTORIA@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>

>To: VICTORIA@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU

>Reply-to: VICTORIA 19th-Century British Culture & Society

> <VICTORIA@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>

>X-Mailer: WebMail (Hydra) SMTP v3.61.07

>Approved-By: pleary@INDIANA.EDU

>X-WebMail-UserID: khindmar

>X-EXP32-SerialNo: 00002905

>>Hello everyone!

>>I'm a student at Dalhousie University doing some research into homosexual

>subcultures in the Victorian period, and I was wondering if anyone had

>information on sources, literary or otherwise, which provide comprehensive

>information on specific phrases, words, euphemisms etc.. used in homosexual

>circles. I am particularly interested in coded language associated with

>lesbians (for various reasons extremely hard to come by). Examples of

>derogatory slang directed at homosexuals would also be useful.

>>>Thanks, and have a wonderful evening!

>>Katie Hindmarch-Watson

>Dalhousie University

>khindmar@is2.dal.ca

___________________________________________________________________Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 13:36:55 -0500

From: Cristina Nelson <crn@alum.mit.edu>

Subject: [histsex] seeking Leigh Summers

In mid-October I received a couple of messages from members who responded

to my post about the "funny looks" I get when I tell people that my

dissertation is on US women's underwear 1940-70. I would like to contact

one of these members off-line: Leigh Summers whose dissertation was on

corsetry 1850-1900. I have a coule of general questions about methodology

and sources. Please contact me at <crn@alum.mit.edu> Thanks!

___________________________________________________________________From: "Jencks" <jencks4@home.com>

To: "hapty" <hapty@egroups.com>, "cybernude" <nudist@cybernude.com>,

"Histsex:For historians of sexuality" <histsex@listbot.com>,

"INFP" <INFP@egroups.com>, "Michael Lundquist" <bluenat@primenet.com>,

"NudistHallofShame" <nikki@spamcop.net>,

"Peter Hansen" <petemoss1976@yahoo.com>,

"seanpatrick" <sp@seanpatricklive.com>,

"StopPrisonRape" <tcahill@mcn.org>,

"stripsearch" <strpsrch@egroups.com>,

"YMCAnaked" <YMCAnaked@egroups.com>

Subject: [histsex] My Story

Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 23:10:51 -0700

I'm writing this to all the mail groups I belong to and to a few other

groups and individuals that might be interested.

When I was a teenager, I tried very hard to live up to my father's idea of

what a Christian is. My father was always going on and on about avoiding

evil and being pure. I was so wrapped up in this that I felt guilty about

taking a shower or using the bathroom. I never went anywhere without a long

sleeved shirt and long pants on no matter how hot it got. I even thought

about wearing gloves and a hood so that no evil flesh would show. I was

tearing myself apart with guilt.

At the same time, I found myself drawn to images of naked men. I would only

look at medical books or other sources that were sanctioned by the church

but it still tore me apart.

When I became a young adult and got away from my father's influence, I began

to loosen up my morality. Currently, I don't believe in morality at all but

I adhere to ethics instead. Morality is arbitrary rules written by long

dead historical figures. Ethics is based more on reason with the single

principle of whatever is in the best interest of everyone involved.

In loosening up my morality, I allowed myself to look and pornography and

discovered an odd phenomenon about myself. The more sexual the image, the

less interested I was. It took me a while to figure it out but what I was

drawn to was pictures of men who were completely comfortable with their

bodies. When I gave up the notion that homosexuality is evil, I discovered

firm proof that I'm not homosexual because I'm not interested in men in a

sexual way. I was reaching for a comfort with my own body that had been

denied to me by an overmoralizing father.

I got interested in nudism because, according to the American Association of

Nude Recreation, they were about body acceptance in a non sexual

environment. That sounded perfect for someone wanting to become comfortable

with my own body.

Only there was a problem when I contacted nudists and nudist organizations.

I found that not all people claiming to be nudist stuck to the policy of a

non sexual environment. I personally experienced and heard stories of

sexual harassment, pedophilia, swinging, and other sexual activities

masquerading as nudism. I also found that most nudist organizations were

naive in their screening process. Many nudist organizations only screen by

disallowing single men assuming that married people couldn't possibly cause

any trouble. Because of this, I have withdrawn from many nudist contacts.

I have started my own mail group at http://www.egroups.com/group/hapty

My thinking is that through a mail group moderated by me, I could engage in

discussions on certain topics while screening out certain kinds of

individuals. The kinds of topics to be discussed include:

"How to adequately screen potential members to a nudist organization."

"When is nudity harmful?"

"When is nudity beneficial?"

"What needs to be covered in a sex education course?"

The kinds of people to be screened out include those that would use this

mail group to pursue erotic requests and those that would try to dominate

this group by getting on a soap box.

If you have a similar story or are interested in discussion of this nature,

please check this group out. If you know of anyone or any group that would

be interested or if you know how I might better promote this group, please

let me know (most of you know how to contact me)

___________________________________________________________________

Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 16:12:36 -0500

From: Louis Godbout <lgodbo@po-box.mcgill.ca>

Subject: [histsex] Benefit lecture / Conference benefice sur les homosexuels au XVIIIe

siecle

I will be presenting one last time my benefit lecture on homosexual

images of the 18th c. (Please see press release below for details.)

For those unable to attend but interested in this subject matter, please

contact me if you wish to peruse my experimental website. It is still

under construction but has all the conference images (and more !) and

part of the text (in French).

Regards,

Louis Godbout

ARCHIVES GAIES DU QUÉBEC

COMMUNIQUÉ

À la demande générale, nouvelle présentation

Vendredi, 17 novembre à 20h00

Beaux enfans de Sodome : images homosexuelles du XVIIIe siècle

Une conférence au bénéfice des Archives gaies du Québec, par Louis

Godbout

Sodomites, bougres ou bardaches, peu importe comment on les appelait,

les homosexuels ont longtemps été bannis de l'art et de la littérature,

si ce n'est pour être cantonnés dans des représentations idéalisées de

mythes païens, tel celui de Jupiter et Ganymède. Ce n'est qu'au Siècle

des lumières que surgiront les premiers portraits, pas toujours

flatteurs, d'homosexuels comme personnages de romans ou sujets à

gravures.

Alors que s'éteignent les derniers bûchers, ces beaux enfans de Sodome

renaissent de leurs cendres et s'en donnent à coeur joie, profitant de

l'esprit de fronde anti-religieuse et de la large diffusion des livres

obscènes et des estampes licencieuses.

Naïves, comiques ou érotiques, plus de cinquante images, dont une

vingtaine jamais reproduites, seront présentées et commentées pour vous

faire découvrir un revers inexploré de l'histoire du XVIIIe siècle.

Louis Godbout, président sortant des Archives gaies du Québec,

collectionne depuis quinze ans les ouvrages anciens ayant trait à

l'homosexualité.

Vendredi, 17 novembre 2000 à 20h00

UQAM, Pavillon des sciences de la gestion

315, rue Sainte-Catherine Est, **Salle RM-130**

(Niveau métro, coin St-Denis et Ste-Catherine)

Billets disponibles à l'avance chez Priape et à L'Androgyne - 10$

Pour infos:

Archives gaies du Québec

http://www.agq.qc.ca

Courriel : info@agq.qc.ca

Téléphone: 514-287-9987

___________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 22:40:18 -0500

Subject: [histsex] oral history of sexuality

From: "Jane H. Rothstein" <jane_rothstein@mindspring.com>

Can anyone recommend either studies in the history of sexuality that make

extensive (or sole) use of oral history interviews, or (better) articles

that discuss the practice of interviewing in researching the history of

sexuality?

In terms of the latter, I would be equally interested in perspectives from

oral history, ethnography, and other social science practices.

thanks,

Jane

Jane Rothstein,

Ph.D. Candidate

Department of History and

Skirball Department of Hebrew and Judaic Studies

New York University

jr231@is5.nyu.edu

jane_rothstein@mindspring.com

"Racing between mysticism and revolution..."

-- Phil Ochs

___________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 08:50:26 -0500 (EST)

From: Elise R Chenier <3erc3@qlink.queensu.ca>

Subject: Re: [histsex] oral history of sexuality

Jane,

_Boots and Leather, Slippers of Gold_ is a lesbian history of Buffalo; the

authors used oral histories, collected over 17 years, as a primary

source. I am sure Chancey did as well for Gay New York, and I am willing

to bet Marc Stein did too for his very recently released lesbian

and gay history of

Philadelphia. Sorry I don't have full titles in front of me. Unfortunately

I don't *think* any of the above have written extensively about using or

doing oral history, but I do know that of the first book I mentioned,

there is an extensive and thoughtful introduction that includes a

discussion of methodology ie ethnography.

Cheers, Elise Chenier

___________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 08:56:11 -0500

From: Rebecca Haidt <haidt.1@osu.edu>

Subject: Re: [histsex] Benefit lecture / Conference benefice sur les

homosexuels au XVIIIe siecle

Histsex:For historians of sexuality - http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah/listinf.htm

Re: the Godbout lecture on "images gaies," I would be grateful were you to=

=20

be able to send me information on the address for the experimental website=

=20

you mentioned in your announcement.

Thank you very much,

Rebecca Haidt

Associate Professor of Spanish

Ohio State University

Columbus, OH 43210

haidt.1@osu.edu

___________________________________________________________________From: "Lesley Hall" <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>

Subject: Re: [histsex] oral history of sexuality

Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 16:25:28 -0000

Kate Fisher (currently at the University of Exeter) has used oral material

to investigate issues around birth control and similar aspects of married

life. She has published several articles from the material used in her PhD

thesis, including one on attitudes towards abortion amongst women in Wales

between the wars in Eder, Hall and Hekma, _Sexual Cultures in Europe: Themes

in Sexuality_ (Manchester University Press, 1999)

Lesley Hall

lesleyah@primex.co.uk

website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah

___________________________________________________________________

Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 11:57:31 -0800

From: julian carter <jcarter@leland.Stanford.EDU>

Subject: Re: [histsex] oral history of sexuality

Elise and other comrades interested in oral history:

Allan Berube's *Coming Out Under Fire* draws on oral history sources, and

might be helpful, but I don't recall that it includes a specific statement

of strategies and techniques. I do know that his current project on gay men

in and around the maritime trades in San Francisco is not only based almost

entirely on interviews, but is also stunningly articulate and reflective

about the process of producing historical knowledge through conversation

with historical actors. I don't think he's published any of this yet--but

he seems like a generous person, and might be willing to correspond about

the issues he's exploring.

I second the notion of looking at Liz Kennedy and Madeline Davis' work, but

I would suggest an article called something like "Oral History and the

Buffalo Lesbian Community," rather than the full volume *Boots of Leather,

Slippers of Gold*--I'm not in my office, so I'm not positive about this,

but my memory is that the article is reprinted in the big blue Lesbian and

Gay Studies Reader, and that it is more explicit about problems and

potentials for oral history than is the methodological statement in the

monograph. Again, I'd encourage you to write to Kennedy. After all,

there's nothing like conversation when you want to find out how someone

talks to people.

Julian

___________________________________________________________________From: "Colin Shingleton" <cshingleton@bigpond.com>

Subject: Re: [histsex] My Story

Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 17:58:26 +1100

I found this letter alarming. I hadn't realised that nudity might be taken

by some as an invitation to sexual behaviour.

I also have a Christian background but prudish tho it was, it was focussed

around a neurotic sometimes psychologically sometimes physically violent

mother and a father always at work. But my attraction to girls and a need to

be with them brought me before I was 10 into contact with three older

sisters with whom I had many experiences until they went back to England. I

continued on promiscuously but married twice with 4 grown up children, up

more or less until now, 35 years later.

I find the idea that I might be completely satisfied intellectually

,aesthetically, psychologically , or sexually by any one person or that i

should be able to satisfy any person silly. My life has been predicated on

that observation and been undertaken acknowledging it.

My moral position is existentialist and it is based on dignity and respect

and consideration of others. I am an ethical empiricist and believe that the

morality is specified loosely as the overriding belief that the moral is

characterised by that which I want for myself and want others for others

and want them to want for themselves and others including me.

I have had no experience of nudism and am not certain if it has anything to

do with sexuality per se any more than being dressed is to do with it. So I

would like to understand the problem better.

It would seem at the outset tho that the problem isn't just one of screening

predators from what might be a situation where unclothed normalcy prevailed

because nudity implied sexual promiscuity for the predatory, but one of

identifying those who are vacuous enough to make a connection between

sexual permissiveness and nudity.

Does that come down to identifying attitudes which indicate not promiscuity

but the link between disrespect of others or at least a belief that those

who wish to unclothe are to be seen as potential deserved victims?

___________________________________________________________________Subject: Re: [histsex] oral history of sexuality

Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 09:08:35 -0600

From: "Michael J. Murphy" <mjmurphy@artsci.wustl.edu>

Jane,

Martin Duberman used oral histories in his book Stonewall. And George

Chauncey definitely did for Gay New York. Didn't Eric Marcus collect oral

histories of the gay lib/steonewall generation for a book? I think Joan

Nestle might be a good contact on this topic since (I believe) the

Lesbian Herstory Archives collects oral herstories.

Mike Murphy

___________________________________________________________________

From: "Jencks" <jencks4@home.com>

Subject: Re: [histsex] My Story

Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 06:50:07 -0700

I'd like permission to forward this letter to hapty, my mail group. I'd

also like to invite you personally to join hapty. You don't have to be

haptic to join.

----- Original Message -----

From: Colin Shingleton <cshingleton@bigpond.com>

To: Colin Shingleton <cshingleton@bigpond.com>; Histsex:For historians of

sexuality <histsex@listbot.com>

Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 12:03 AM

Subject: Re: [histsex] My Story

___________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 15:42:26 +0100

From: Gert Hekma <hekma@pscw.uva.nl>

Subject: [histsex] gay and lesbian studies in Amsterdam exists!

Gay and Lesbian Studies at the University of Amsterdam

In an article in a collection of essays "Lesbian and Gay Studies", edited

by Theo Sandfort, Judith Schuyf, Jan Willem Duyvendak and Jeffrey Weeks

(Sage 2000), Theo Sandfort states that gay and lesbian studies at the

Universities of

Amsterdam and Utrecht have disappeared. This may be true for Utrecht where

Sandfort chaired this group, but gay and lesbian studies at the University

of Amsterdam is active as ever. You might have a look at the website

http://www.pscw.uva.nl/gl for some of its articles or at

http://www.pscw.uva.nl/internationalschool where you will find the

English-language courses taught by lecturers of women's and gay and lesbian

studies in the track "Gender, Sexuality and Culture".

We asked Sandfort and his Dutch co-editors to revoke this mistake but they

flatly refused to do so, forcing us to make known that gay and lesbian

studies at the University of Amsterdam continues to exist as before.

The article (which is kind of interview panel on the relation between

women's and gay and lesbian studies in the Netherlands) further includes a

series of distortions of the history of gay and lesbian studies at the

University of Amsterdam. Meanwhile, its main achievements go largely

unnoticed, for example, two decades of teaching gay and lesbian studies,

contributions to sex debates in the Netherlands or the organization of a

long series of conferences from "Among Men, Among Women" in 1983 up till

"Sexual Cultures in Europe", the results of which were recently published

by Manchester University Press in two volumes (1999). Many of you will have

experienced the hospitality from the Amsterdam group on one of its many

conferences. Soon, some new activities by the George Mosse Foundation that

aims to promote the study of gay and lesbian history in Amsterdam, will be

announced.

For another perspective on the history of gay and lesbian studies, see the

article by Theo van der Meer and undersigned, "Gay and Lesbian Studies in

the Netherlands", in: Henry L. Minton (ed), Gay and Lesbian Studies. The

Emergence of a Discipline, special issue of the Journal of Homosexuality

24:1/2 (1992), pp. 125-136.

Feel free to forward this text to your friends and colleagues!

---------------------------------

Gert Hekma

Gay and Lesbian Studies

Dpt of Sociology and Anthropology

University of Amsterdam

Oudezijds Achterburgwal 185

1012 DK Amsterdam

Phone: * 31 20 525 2226 or 6278877

Fax: * 31 20 525 3010

Email: hekma@pscw.uva.nl

Website: http://www.pscw.uva.nl/gl

___________________________________________________________________From: "Colin Shingleton" <cshingleton@bigpond.com>

Subject: Re: [histsex] My Story

Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 06:42:10 +1100

Please do.

----- Original Message -----

From: "Jencks" <jencks4@home.com>

To: "Histsex:For historians of sexuality" <histsex@listbot.com>

Sent: Friday, November 10, 2000 12:50 AM

Subject: Re: [histsex] My Story

> Histsex:For historians of sexuality -

http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah/listinf.htm

>> I'd like permission to forward this letter to hapty, my mail group. I'd

> also like to invite you personally to join hapty. You don't have to be

> haptic to join.

___________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 22:44:00 -0800 (PST)

From: Lynn Romer <lynnromer@yahoo.com>

Subject: [histsex] A Web Site

Just came across this web site that ties in with my previous question:

http://www.mired.com/pipe/pipe_09_01_1999.html

Thought it was most interesting! Someone sent me a Butterfinger bar in the mail the other day, and I'm trying to figure out what that act was intended to mean.

___________________________________________________________________From: "Jencks" <jencks4@home.com>

To: "Histsex:For historians of sexuality" <histsex@listbot.com>,

"hapty" <hapty@egroups.com>

Subject: [histsex] love and sex

Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 08:46:47 -0700

We need a better definition of love. We use the word love when we are

describing sexual desire for another person. We use the word love to

describe the care a parent is supposed to give to a child. We use the word

love to describe the care a brother is supposed to give a brother. We use

the word love to describe the enjoyment we get out of pizza.

The reason why I bring this up is that, after hearing a few comments on

Histsex about turning a pedophiles sexual desire for children into a desire

to care for children, I think it's very important to distinguish between sex

and love.

Okay, I'm on a bit of a soap box. But personally I have always found it

easy to get into sexual relationships but very hard to find people to care

about how I felt or what I thought. Where largely, I've been looking for

the love of a brother caring for a brother, I've been finding the love of

people desiring to have sex with me.

A pedophiles sexual desire cannot be turned into caring. Some pedophiles to

also care about children but they need to have their sexual desire turned

into a desire for adults. Only then can they be allowed to be around

children.

___________________________________________________________________Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 11:36:17 -0500 (EST)

From: Elise R Chenier <3erc3@qlink.queensu.ca>

Subject: [histsex] ANN: Lynch Grant for LesBiGay&Trans History

PLEASE DISTRIBUTE WIDELY:

*Apologies for multiple postings*

Applications for the 2001 Michael Lynch Grant for Lesbina, Gay, Bisexual

and Transgendered History are now being sought.

The $1,500 grant is awarded by the Toronto Centre for Lesbian and Gay

Studies in conjunction with the Sexual Diversity Studies Program at the

University of Toronto, and is open to individuals, groups, and

organizations. Submitted porposals will be reviewed by an award selection

committee comprised of lesbian and gay historians. Final approval of the

grant will be made by the board of the TCLGS based on the recommendations

of the awards committee.

The first Michael Lynch History Grant was awarded to support the

development of a panel on the 20 year history of lesbian and gay student

activism in Montreal universities, the results of which were presented at

the November 1992 La Ville en Rose Conference in Montreal. Other

recipients include Kush, a South Asian LGBT group based in Toronto, and

Robin Metcalfe, who produced a slide show history of gay life in Halifax.

The grant is named for Michael Lynch, the late University of Toronto

English professor, long-time gay and AIDS activist, and founder of the

TCLGS. It is intended to support and encourage ambitious, in-depth history

research projects by academic and community researchers.

Qualifying projects are subject to the following guidelines:

The Grant is not retroactive and must be used for the creation of new

work. Projects must either commence or be in progress in 2001.

Projects must contribute to an understanding of the historical development

of lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgendered sexualities, identities,

politics, and communities in Canada. Top priority will be given to

projects that reflect the racial, cultural, linguistic, class or other

differences which make up queer historical experience.

Projects may take any of the following formats: slide show, workshop,

conference, oral history project, art exhibit, popular or academic

article, pamphlet or book. Alternative formats are encouraged and

welcomed.

Applicants are asked to submit:

a) a three-page outline of their project, describing its scope, objectives

and intended audience.

b) an overall budget highlighting those expenditures for which the grant

will be utilized. The budget should also include information on other

grants received or expected, if applicable.

c) a brief resume highlighting the applicant's qualifications and

experience in the proposed field.

Applications may be in French or English, should be mailed to: The Michael

Lynch History Grant, Sexual Diversity Studies Program, University of

Toronto, Toronto, ON M6C 3Y7

Applications must be received no later than 15 February, 2001. Results

will be announced in April 2001.

For further inquiries, contact Elise Chenier at 3erc3@qlink.queensu.ca

___________________________________________________________________Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 12:00:44 -0500 (EST)

From: Elise R Chenier <3erc3@qlink.queensu.ca>

Subject: Re: [histsex] love and sex

On Fri, 10 Nov 2000, Jencks wrote:

> A pedophiles sexual desire cannot be turned into caring. Some pedophiles to

> also care about children but they need to have their sexual desire turned

> into a desire for adults. Only then can they be allowed to be around

> children.

> For me this is such an important question. I am nearing the end of writing

my doctoral thesis about psychiatirc treatment programs for sex offenders

in the 50s and 60s, and naturally people always ask what I think we should

do with pedophiles. Is desire malleable (as anti-pornography types

believe), is it a Freudian battle between developmental forces, a

failure to mature? Or are men who sexually assault or "diddle" with

children suffering from a crisis of masculinity? Can we describe all

pedophiles according to one model, be it psychoanalytic, Foucauldian or

otherwise? Or do we need to connect pedophilia with other philia's?

Does it even matter? Are pedophiles functioning so far outside of our

social norms that they cannot ever be successfully retreived?

I welcome any thoughts people might have about these questions of desire

and pedophilia, on or off list.

Elise Chenier

Queen's University

___________________________________________________________________From: MillerJimE@aol.com

Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 18:54:48 EST

Subject: Re: [histsex] love and sex

In a message dated 11/10/2000 11:02:05 AM Central Standard Time,

3erc3@qlink.queensu.ca writes:

<< I welcome any thoughts people might have about these questions of desire

and pedophilia, on or off list. >>

Please define pedophilia. Sex between an adult and any legal minor (up

to age 17 in the USA)? Can we differentiate between pre-adolescents and

adolescents, and place the adolescents on a sliding scale? Certainly a

17-year-old in a bar with a fake ID is not about to experience the same

sexual relationship that a 5-year-old enticed with some candy will experience.

Jim Miller

___________________________________________________________________

Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 19:44:02 -0500 (EST)

From: Elise R Chenier <3erc3@qlink.queensu.ca>

Subject: Re: [histsex] love and sex

On Fri, 10 Nov 2000 MillerJimE@aol.com wrote:

> Please define pedophilia. Sex between an adult and any legal minor (up

> to age 17 in the USA)? Can we differentiate between pre-adolescents and

> adolescents, and place the adolescents on a sliding scale? Certainly a

> 17-year-old in a bar with a fake ID is not about to experience the same

> sexual relationship that a 5-year-old enticed with some candy will experience.

> Jim Miller

Of course you are absolutely right for posing this question. When I

composed mine, I imagined instances in which no ambiguity exists, ie

adults over 18 and children under, say ten. I recognize

that adolescents are cast as children when they are "victims" of gay

sexual "assault" as was the case a number of years ago in a "pedophile sex

ring" bust in London, Ontario Canada. Alternately, in the 1950s, the

period under my study, a local Toronto 14 year old girl who

was murdered by her married male lover was cast as a sexually mature

precocious teenager in the local media.

Clearly these cases need to be viewed critically: adolescents are cast as

either children or adults depending on the political, social or

ideological point being made. Indeed, perhaps the most egregious example

is with the Paul Bernardo and Karla Homolka murders also in Ontario and reported

internationally. One of their victims was, on the night of her abduction,

in fact locked out of the house

by her parents who decided to take a "tough love" approach to her

late-night proclivities. When she was first reported missing, she was

depicted as a troublesome teen. That part of the story, however, has

since been lost in her martyrdom as a victim.

So, when I posed my original questions, I did so with these ambiguities

aside. When I said pedophile, (in part real, I would argue, and in part

cultural construction) I meant an adult male (or female for that

matter) who engaged in either forced, bought, cajoled, bribed, tricked

sexual play or assault with a person of any sex who is pre-adolescent.

Thank your for demanding a clarification of terms.

Elise Chenier

___________________________________________________________________From: "Jencks" <jencks4@home.com>

Subject: Re: [histsex] love and sex

Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 22:00:13 -0700

What was the original message or question. This sounds like a question I've

been dealing with for a while. And I agree, when I use the word pedophile I

am usually referring to preadolescents as adolescents are capable of being

sexual.

In fact, the reason child abuse is child abuse is that little kids are

physically and psychologically incapable of handling sex. However, kids

develop at different rates so that even if it's possible for one 14 year old

to be capable of handling sex, it's also possible for one 18 year old to be

incapable. Thus, having a desire for teenagers is still risky in that, how

do you tell when the teenager is capable of handling it.

----- Original Message -----

From: Elise R Chenier <3erc3@qlink.queensu.ca>

To: Histsex:For historians of sexuality <histsex@listbot.com>

Sent: Friday, November 10, 2000 5:44 PM

Subject: Re: [histsex] love and sex

> Histsex:For historians of sexuality -

http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah/listinf.htm

>>> On Fri, 10 Nov 2000 MillerJimE@aol.com wrote:

>> > Please define pedophilia. Sex between an adult and any legal minor

(up

> > to age 17 in the USA)? Can we differentiate between pre-adolescents and

> > adolescents, and place the adolescents on a sliding scale? Certainly a

> > 17-year-old in a bar with a fake ID is not about to experience the same

> > sexual relationship that a 5-year-old enticed with some candy will

experience.

> > Jim Miller

>> Of course you are absolutely right for posing this question. When I

> composed mine, I imagined instances in which no ambiguity exists, ie

> adults over 18 and children under, say ten. I recognize

> that adolescents are cast as children when they are "victims" of gay

> sexual "assault" as was the case a number of years ago in a "pedophile sex

> ring" bust in London, Ontario Canada. Alternately, in the 1950s, the

> period under my study, a local Toronto 14 year old girl who

> was murdered by her married male lover was cast as a sexually mature

> precocious teenager in the local media.

>> Clearly these cases need to be viewed critically: adolescents are cast as

> either children or adults depending on the political, social or

> ideological point being made. Indeed, perhaps the most egregious example

> is with the Paul Bernardo and Karla Homolka murders also in Ontario and

reported

> internationally. One of their victims was, on the night of her abduction,

> in fact locked out of the house

> by her parents who decided to take a "tough love" approach to her

> late-night proclivities. When she was first reported missing, she was

> depicted as a troublesome teen. That part of the story, however, has

> since been lost in her martyrdom as a victim.

>> So, when I posed my original questions, I did so with these ambiguities

> aside. When I said pedophile, (in part real, I would argue, and in part

> cultural construction) I meant an adult male (or female for that

> matter) who engaged in either forced, bought, cajoled, bribed, tricked

> sexual play or assault with a person of any sex who is pre-adolescent.

>> Thank your for demanding a clarification of terms.

>> Elise Chenier

___________________________________________________________________Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 09:09:31 -0500

From: Sheila McManus <smcmanus@yorku.ca>

Subject: Re: [histsex] Butterfinger Symbolism?

>Has anyone familiar with the gay culture ever heard of any symbolism

>attached to someone sending you a Butterfinger candy bar? Someone

>tells me that it is a clear "F" you! kind of message if sent to a woman by

>a lesbian, but I have never heard that. Does anyone know where I could

>research this?

Never heard of that in my life, so if it is for real it does not seem to

have become part of Toronto's lesbian scene!

Sheila McManus

* * * * * * * * *

Sheila McManus

Ph.D. Candidate and Sessional Instructor

Department of History, York University

smcmanus@yorku.ca

___________________________________________________________________Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 09:13:21 -0500 (EST)

From: Leslie Ambedian <ambedian@yorku.ca>

Subject: Re: [histsex] Butterfinger Symbolism?

Do we even get Butterfingers here? I thought they were strictly

American. Crispy Crunches don't seem to have the same, umm, cachet.

By the way, Sheila, are you out on the Founders picket line? If so, we

should chat!

-Leslie

Leslie Ambedian "Soylent Green [...] is not people.

ambedian@wiznet.ca Soylent Green is kittens. We apologise

or ambedian@yorku.ca for the error."

http://www.wiznet.ca/~ambedian

___________________________________________________________________

From: "Dalley-Crozier ,Dr Ivan" <i.dalley-crozier@wellcome.ac.uk>

Subject: [histsex] childhood sex: conferencem announcement

Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 15:17:43 -0000

Dear All,

Fernando Vidal and I are interested in getting together one or two other

people for a session at the following conference. If you are already

working on childhood sexuality, and want to give a paper in Geneva, then

please get in contact with me privately. We have two papers so far: on eon

William Acton and childhood sexuality (ie, 19th C English medical writing on

childhood sexuality), and a paper on 18th C medical writing about children's

masturbation. But do not feel that you have to be interested in

masturtbation to give a paper: we're interested in other forms of sex too

(but perhaps do not get out enough??)

* * *

On 13-16 September 2001 will take place in Geneva, Switzerland, the 5th

Conference of the European Association for the History of Medicine and

Health. The general topic is "Health and the Child: Care and Culture in

History." Child sexuality is mentioned as one of the conference topics. The

deadline for submission of proposals is November 15th. Yes, I realise that

this is Really SOON, but it looks like it could be fun, and I only heard

about it about an hour ago (and have since written MY abstract!!)

Cheerio, Ivan

============================================

Ivan Dalley Crozier,

i.dalley-crozier@wellcome.ac.uk

"An entertaining essay might perhaps be

written on the sexlessness of historians;

but it would be entertaining and nothing

more: we do not know enough either about

the historians or sex."

--Lytton Strachey, 1931

============================================

___________________________________________________________________From: HayGirl99@aol.com

Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 01:40:27 EST

Subject: [histsex] History of Sex in America

I'm trying to find any information on the history of sex in America as

pertaining to the general opinions people had of it, methods of birth

control, treatment of the subject in conversation, etc.

If anyone has any information on the subject or knows where I can go to

find it, please let me know. I'd really appreciate it.

~Hailey

___________________________________________________________________

Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 00:00:57 -0700 (MST)

From: Tim Hodgdon <Tim.Hodgdon@asu.edu>

Subject: Re: [histsex] History of Sex in America

Hailey:

This is such a broad question that it's difficult to respond, except to

refer to the synthesis by John D'Emilio and Estelle B. Freedman, _Intimate

Matters: A History of Sexuality in America._

What resources have you consulted already?

Tim Hodgdon

Reference Specialist

Hayden Library

Ph.D. candidate

Department of History

Arizona State University

Tim.Hodgdon@asu.edu

___________________________________________________________________From: <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>

Subject: Re: [histsex] History of Sex in America

Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 10:16:28 GMT

.> I'm trying to find any information on the history

of sex in America as

> pertaining to the general opinions people had of it,

methods of birth

> control, treatment of the subject in conversation,

etc.>

On b-c etc in C19th, see Janet Farrell Brodie,

Contraception and Abortion in C19th America, Leslie

Reagon's When Abortion was a Crime is also to be

recommended.

Lesley Hall

lesleyah@primex.co.uk

___________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 14:50:46 +0100

From: Gert Hekma <hekma@pscw.uva.nl>

Subject: Re: [histsex] pedophiles, "world's first gay novel" in English

Entimos books recently published "Alcibiades the Schoolboy" by Antonio

Rocco, advertised as the "world's first homosexual novel" (the text was

published for the first time in Italian in 1652). It is not only a

homosexual novel, but also a book on boy-love. It offers an interesting

defense by the teacher why it would be nice to fuck the pupil Alcibiades,

the adresse of his discourse.

The book is available by way of info@intermale.nl

For a discussion of boy-love, it might be worthwhile to consult the journal

Paidika, devoted to the topic of boy-love, which offers a wide range of

historic articles and political discussions on the theme including

interviews with well established scholars. The journal stopped publishing

recently, not only because of the changing climate. You might find copies

of the journal in libraries and gay bookshops around the world. On several

occasions, I have mentioned relevant books and articles on the theme in my

Book Ends, published in Sexualities.

Having discussed the topic at length on various occasions, having held

dozens of interviews with gay men, and having read many (auto)biographies

in the field of gay studies, I want to bring forward that many gay men have

had in their youth rewarding and pleasurable sexual relations with adults,

with their full consent, or should have liked to have had such

relationships. Many of these men were in their puberty, but also several

prepubescent, ranging in age from 6 years on. So to state that sexual

relations with adults are bad or damaging is a one-sided view that history

nor experience support. It very much depends on the social context in which

it is happening, and on the attitudes of the involved persons.

---------------------------------

Gert Hekma

Gay and Lesbian Studies

Dpt of Sociology and Anthropology

University of Amsterdam

Oudezijds Achterburgwal 185

1012 DK Amsterdam

Phone: * 31 20 525 2226 or 6278877

Fax: * 31 20 525 3010

Email: hekma@pscw.uva.nl

Website: http://www.pscw.uva.nl/gl

___________________________________________________________________

Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 07:26:29 -0800 (PST)

From: Florence Binard <florence_binard@yahoo.com>

Subject: [histsex] lesbian and gay pride

hello,

I was wondering if you could help me. I am trying to

find out when the first 'LESBIAN and gay pride' took

place in England. I think that the first 'gay pride'

took place on July 1st 1972 and that women

participated under the banner of the gay women's

liberation, but i don't know when it was first called

'the LESBIAN and gay pride'. My hypothesis is that the

introduction of the term 'lesbian' marks a turning

point in the making of lesbian identity.

thank you for your help

Florence

___________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 15:01:28 -0500 (EST)

From: Elise R Chenier <3erc3@qlink.queensu.ca>

Subject: [histsex] CORRECTION! Michael Lynch Grant

Michael Lynch Grant Correction

The snail mail ADDRESS FOR SUBMISSIONS for the recently announced Lynch

Grant in Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgendered History was INCORRECT in

the original announcement. Please re-print and post the corrected

announcement below.

My most sincere apologies for any inconvenience caused.

Elise Chenier, Grant Coordinator

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Applications for the 2001 Michael Lynch Grant in Queer History are now

being sought.