HISTSEX ARCHIVES: March 2001
© Lesley Hall and list contributors
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 05:55:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Stephen Morris <smmorris58@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Holey sheets and morman boxers
Hi.
I don't know if this is "urban legend" or "truth" but
I understand that Morman adult males have a pair of
boxers that must be worn at all times. When bathing
or having sex these boxers are pulled up onto their
heads and worn upside down, with the waistband holding
the "boxer hat" on over their hair. How is that for
underwear-as-ghetto-do-rag?
Stephen
___________________________________________________________________From: "Philip Stokes" <philip.stokes@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [histsex] pornography on tv
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 13:43:14 -0000
Kate,
Please forgive me if I seem mean, but while yes, I did record the whole
series, the material there is important to my own research, and I couldn't
therefore in good conscience lend you the cassette. And the second VT
machine I might perhaps have copied with has given up the ghost, such as it
ever was.
However, it occurs to me that your own institution might well have recorded
the series for its own library - or a neighbouring university likewise.
And there is the book - Pornography: the secret history of civilisation, by
Isabel Tang. London: Channel 4 Books, 1999.
I hope in one way or several, you solve this.
Regards,
Philip Stokes
philip.stokes@btinternet.com
___________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 11:50:56 -0500
From: David Nicholas Harley <David.N.Harley.4@nd.edu>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Holey sheets and Mormon underwear
Stephen wrote:
I don't know if this is "urban legend" or "truth" but
>I understand that Morman adult males have a pair of
>boxers that must be worn at all times. When bathing
>or having sex these boxers are pulled up onto their
>heads and worn upside down, with the waistband holding
>the "boxer hat" on over their hair.
David Harley:
This refers to the "Garment of the Holy Priesthood", an item rather more
elaborate and substantial than a pair of boxer shorts. It is more like the
one-piece underwear worn by male characters in Hollywood Westerns. A
member of the Latter Day Saints is instructed to wear it (or its
successor!) constantly throughout his life: "It will be a shield and a
protection to you from the power of the destroyer until you have finished
your work on the earth, providing you do not defile it, but are true and
faithful to your covenants." It incorporates Masonic symbols and is
bestowed in the endowment ceremony, which is modelled on Masonic ritual.
David Harley
Dept. of History
219 O'Shaughnessy
University of Notre Dame
Notre Dame IN 46556
219-631-7313
___________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 08:58:28 -0800
From: "Dr. David Hersh" <Dr_Sex@netidea.com>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Holey sheets and Mormon underwear
At 11:50 AM 3/1/2001 -0500, David Harley wrote:
>...It incorporates Masonic symbols and is bestowed in the endowment
>ceremony...
Somehow juxtaposing discussion about this garment with "endowment" kinda
makes me smile.
David Hersh
___________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 12:37:20 -0500
From: David Nicholas Harley <David.N.Harley.4@nd.edu>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Holey sheets and Mormon underwear
David Hersch:
>Somehow juxtaposing discussion about this garment with "endowment" kinda
>makes me smile.
David Harley:
In that case, perhaps I should quote from a primary source on the women's
garment:
"In those days [the 1970s] garments were one-piece, made of thick nylon,
and cut like very loose teddies; they had a scoop neck and little cap
sleeves and they came to the knee. The amount of coverage wasn't
accidental: One of the purposes of "garments" is to make sure that Mormons
eschew daring clothing. The other is more directly theological: The
underwear's holy nature is expressed by small markings sewn into the cloth
over each breast, the navel, and one knee. (The markings signify
comforting homilies like "deal squarely with your fellow men," and are
intended to serve as reminders of temple covenants. The symbols themselves
derive from the fact that Joseph Smith was a newly initiated and
enthusiastic Freemason when he originated the Mormon temple rites in 1842,
and so the Masonic compass and square appear on the left and right breasts
of the Mormon garments.) The garments had one other characteristic that,
if not actually biblical, did have something to do with creation: women's
garments were slit in the crotch, very generously, so that they flapped
open and left a girl's greatest fascinations exposed."
Deborah Laake, Secret Ceremonies: A Mormon Woman's Intimate Diary of
Marriage and Beyond (1993)
The author, Arizona Journalist of the Year in 1988, was excommunicated for
writing this book, which contains plenty of amusing material relevant to
readers of this list, such as the recycling of condoms by vigorous washing,
and rather more disturbing passages about obsessive masturbation. She
suffered from mental illness before and after her breach with the Mormons,
then breast cancer, and finally committed suicide in February 2000, aged 47.
Book News, September 1, 1993: "Silly account of life in the LDS Church and
with a couple of rigid Mormon men."
Kirkus Reviews , March 1, 1993: "A candid, often startling memoir of the
author's life as a Mormon wife."
David Harley
Dept. of History
219 O'Shaughnessy
University of Notre Dame
Notre Dame IN 46556
219-631-7313
___________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 14:42:55 -0500
From: David Nicholas Harley <David.N.Harley.4@nd.edu>
Subject: [histsex] "Lesbian love triangle" Horror Shock
For listmembers interested in public attitudes towards lesbianism, a court
case that has just opened in Bristol, UK, offers a potential bonanza of
newspaper reports to compare for content analysis. The relatively sober
story in The Guardian (London) opens thus:
"A lesbian police sergeant tried to kill her fellow officer girlfriend and
then commit suicide because she believed her lover was having an affair
with a third policewoman, a court was told yesterday."
http://www.guardianunlimited.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,444758,00.html
According to The Times, "She said that Sergeant Nash became obsessively
jealous searching through her bank statements, phone records and e-mails.
The crisis came when her friend found out that she had had a date with a
WPC who, ten years earlier, had been Sergeant NashÆs lover."
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2-92356,00.html
I suspect that other British newspapers will be somewhat more sensational,
as the case goes on. The Mirror, for example, contains such lines as "The
attack came 24 hours after hysterical Nash accused Inspector Glen of
"f***ing" her ex-partner Katherine Willoughby, and threatened to kill her,
a court heard."
http://www.mirror.co.uk/
The Sun, which has some pictures of the policewomen outside court, contains
such lines as "She snapped after discovering the two women were sending
each other text messages and had shared a candlelit dinner at 31-year-old
Sara's home."
http://www.the-sun.co.uk/
Unfortunately, the British tabloid press does not archive its stories, so
there's no alternative but to read the coverage as it comes out, but the
broadsheet press sites are mostly searchable.
David Harley
Dept. of History
219 O'Shaughnessy
University of Notre Dame
Notre Dame IN 46556
219-631-7313
___________________________________________________________________Thu, 01 Mar 2001 04:13:26 GMT
From: "Simon Kindlen" <kindlens@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [histsex] pornography on tv
Kate,
Usually for a fee you can get a copy of a program from the television
company itself. I know the BBC do such a service.
Regards,
Simon
___________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 16:36:20 -0500 (EST)
From: freeman.145@osu.edu
Subject: [histsex] State Lawmakers Grill Penn State's President Over Students' Sex-Education
Fair
This article from The Chronicle of Higher Education
(http://chronicle.com) was forwarded to you from: freeman.145@osu.edu
Wednesday, February 28, 2001
State Lawmakers Grill Penn State's President Over Students'
Sex-Education Fair
By JEFFREY SELINGO
An appropriations hearing for Pennsylvania State University
took an odd turn here Tuesday as lawmakers debated academic
freedom and the obligations of public colleges in the context
of a sex-education fair that featured anatomically correct
gingerbread cookies and a game of orgasm bingo.
Penn State's president, Graham B. Spanier, was grilled for
more than three hours by state legislators about the
university's response to the controversial event, which was
held in a dormitory on the University Park campus earlier this
month. At times the hearing on the university's $361-million
budget request for next year resembled more of a circus
sideshow, complete with a five-minute videotape of the sex
fair that even carried a warning about the sexually explicit
content.
The dispute over the student-sponsored event has heated up in
recent days as the producer of the videotape, State Rep. John
Lawless, a Republican, has used the tape to generate
nationwide media attention while threatening to try to cut off
state funds for Penn State.
In a letter to Mr. Spanier on Monday, Gov. Tom Ridge said he
opposed withholding state dollars from the university because
of the sex fair. But the Republican governor added that Penn
State officials should have placed "common-sense restrictions"
on that event and another student-run festival last November,
which bore a title containing a four-letter reference to the
female anatomy that Mr. Ridge said "might well be the most
offensive profanity in our language."
"I write today to strongly suggest that your administration
reconsider its public statements to date, wholly defending the
university's role in these events, and instead come to
tomorrow's hearing ready to acknowledge the legitimacy of some
of these issues, and to offer a plan to address them," Mr.
Ridge wrote.
At the hearing on Tuesday, Mr. Spanier told lawmakers that in
the future university officials would preview banners used to
advertise events and hang only those that they approved. The
four-letter word that offended Mr. Ridge and some lawmakers
appeared on a sign promoting the November festival. In
addition, Mr. Spanier said, the university plans to review
policies on reserving rooms on campus and limiting access to
university functions.
He also noted that university officials closed down a "tent of
consent" at the sex fair where students would have been
allowed to spend two minutes alone after learning about
consensual sex.
"I'm confident that with some policy changes and a greater
degree of counseling, we might be able to put this behind us,"
Mr. Spanier told the committee. "We will try our best to
balance community standards and the fundamental freedoms that
our founding fathers guaranteed for us."
But Mr. Spanier's comments didn't seem to satisfy a few
legislators, including Mr. Lawless. During their questions,
some lawmakers criticized Mr. Spanier for what they saw as his
reluctance, during his testimony and in an earlier letter to
legislators, to condemn the actions of the students as
"wrong." Mr. Spanier said repeatedly that he found parts of
the two events "offensive" and "embarrassing."
When Rep. David Mayernik, a Democrat, pressed Mr. Spanier on
whether he thought the sex fair this month was "immoral," Mr.
Spanier said: "I don't think my personal view of morality
should be the subject of an appropriations hearing."
In the videotape -- excerpted from an hour-long tape that Mr.
Lawless offered to anyone at the hearing -- the
Philadelphia-area lawmaker is seen walking around the sex fair
asking confrontational questions of students and waving
sex-toy brochures for the camera. Close-up shots showed a
table of "erotic foods guaranteed to turn on" and of books on
bisexuals and erotica. University officials have said that the
direct cost of the fair was $50, paid for by student fees.
While many lawmakers on the appropriations committee said the
sex fair was inappropriate, some of them added that they
understood the difficult position Mr. Spanier is often put in
to balance the needs of some 80,000 students against community
standards that are different for everyone. A few legislators
said they had hoped to follow the lead of their counterparts
in the State Senate, who asked Mr. Spanier only one question
about the sex fair in an appropriations hearing on Monday.
"Some of these sideshows today are overshadowing the fact that
Governor Ridge wants to take money away from Penn State," said
Rep. Frank LaGrotta, a Democrat. Mr. Ridge has proposed a
3-percent budget increase for Penn State, but that doesn't
include about $7-million in base funds that the university
received last year. As a result, university officials say, Mr.
Ridge's increase is less than 1 percent.
During his two rounds of questioning, Mr. Lawless asked
several times why Penn State doesn't monitor e-mail traffic on
its network like some businesses do. Mr. Lawless said that he
had received several "vulgar" e-mail messages from Penn State
students in recent weeks because of his critical comments
about the university. Mr. Spanier apologized for the messages,
but then shot back by reading an e-mail message from one of
the students, an education major, who said that Mr. Lawless
had called and threatened his teaching career.
"After your call, the student got three e-mail messages from
people he didn't know, asking him personal questions about his
family and what district he lives in," Mr. Spanier said. "The
student was scared."
Mr. Lawless admitted making the call to tell the student that
he would inform "every school district in the state" about the
derogatory e-mail message.
"It's not a threat," Mr. Lawless said at the hearing. "It's a
promise."
_________________________________________________________________
Chronicle subscribers can read this article on the Web at this address:
http://chronicle.com/daily/2001/02/2001022802n.htm
If you would like to have complete access to The Chronicle's Web
site, a special subscription offer can be found at:
http://chronicle.com/4free
Use the code D00CM when ordering.
_________________________________________________________________
You may visit The Chronicle as follows:
* via the World-Wide Web, at http://chronicle.com
* via telnet at chronicle.com
_________________________________________________________________
Copyright 2001 by The Chronicle of Higher Education
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Greg Reeder" <reeder@sirius.com>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Holey sheets and Mormon underwear
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 21:10:12 -0800
Mormon under"garments" are introduced the first time a Mormon goes to the
temple to receive their "endowments." It is basically a "union suit" or
typical underwear worn in the 19th century. They were however cut of just
below the knees and were short sleeved though longer versions were
available. What is different are the symbols embroidered on it. Yes they
have Masonic overtones. ( for the influence of Masonic and Hermetic ideas
in early Mormonism see: The Refiners Fire: The Making of Mormon Cosmology,
1644-1844 by John L. Brooke, Cambridge 1994 ) The ideal is to wear the
garments at all times. As a former Mormon missionary I can tell you that
they were taken off to do sporting activities. There is nothing doctrinal
about wearing your garments during sexual activities but since they are
protective and have been blessed to help in procreation it is not
unreasonable to assume that some Mormons would wish to wear them during sex
especially if they were trying to conceive.
Wearing these undergarments of the priesthood made sense to me at the time
for they were a private, hidden identification of the beleiver.. In fact I
found the entire temple ceremony a profound and spiritual experience.
Greg Reeder
reeder@sirius.com
http://www.egyptology.com/
___________________________________________________________________
From: Mal123nash@aol.com
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 07:46:07 EST
Subject: [histsex] Street Sign of Gay (Ulrichs) Draws Fire
The mayor and city manager (city clerk) of Hildesheim, Germany, gave reasons
why a street sign that named a Gay person was removed. My feeling is that
Gays are supposed to be glad they are no longer dragged off to jail and
should be satisfied with the crumbs they have been thrown in the recent past.
If you're interested in reading a translation of the letter:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl3/celebration2000/hildeseng.html
With best wishes,
Mike (and Paul)
Jacksonville, Florida, USA
Mike (and Paul)
http://www.angelfire.com/fl3/celebration2000/memory.html
<A HREF="http://www.angelfire.com/fl3/celebration2000/memory.html">Karl Heinrich Ulrichs: First Gay Activist: MEMORY BOOK 2000</A>
PS. Your entry in Karl's Guest Book would be greatly appreciated!
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 19:32:46 +0000 (GMT)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Noreen=20Giffney?= <stheno_gorgon@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [histsex] Lesbian history - journal query
Hi everyone,
Does anyone know where I can find a list of contents
for Frontiers: Journal of Women's Studies, iv, no. 3
(1979)? I refer to a special issue on lesbian
history, but, as my library is unable to order the
whole volume, I have to choose specific articles to
order.
I'd appreciate any information.
Noreen Giffney
Department of Medieval History
University College, Dublin
___________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 14:59:56 -0500
Subject: Re: [histsex] Holey sheets and morman boxers
From: "Jane Rothstein" <jane_rothstein@mindspring.com>
On Mormon garments, see Colleen McDannell's superb book _Material
Christianity: Religion and Popular Culture in America_ (Yale UP, 1995),
chapter 7, "Mormon Garments: Sacred Clothing and the Body."
Jane Rothstein,
Ph.D. Candidate
Department of History and
Skirball Department of Hebrew and Judaic Studies
New York University
jr231@nyu.edu --> please note the change!
jane_rothstein@mindspring.com
"Racing between mysticism and revolution..."
-- Phil Ochs
___________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 14:43:51 -0500
From: Cristina Nelson <crn@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Holey sheets and morman boxers
In my research for my dissertation on US women's undergarments, 1940-70, I
have run across mentions of Mormon underwear. I didn't do any follow up,
but my recollection is that there are vestments of sorts that devout
Mormons wear... sort of undershirt-type garments with mystical symbols
embroidered on them. The notion of boxers-on-the-head...I don't
know...sounds like the kind of thing my kids do to invert meaning and poke
fun at conventions.
more interesting (and somewhat disturbing) is the fact that teens call
sleeveless men's undershirts "wifebeaters" - at least in NC.
Cristina Nelson
UNC-Chapel Hill
___________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 18:18:59 -0500
From: David Nicholas Harley <David.N.Harley.4@nd.edu>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Lesbian history - journal query
Noreen Giffney wrote:
>Does anyone know where I can find a list of contents
>for Frontiers: Journal of Women's Studies, iv, no. 3
>(1979)?
e-mail frontier@wsu.edu or telephone (509)335-7268.
David Harley
Dept. of History
219 O'Shaughnessy
University of Notre Dame
Notre Dame IN 46556
219-631-7313
___________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 18:35:26 -0500
From: David Nicholas Harley <David.N.Harley.4@nd.edu>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Lesbian history - journal query
Further to Noreen's query re Frontiers: Journal of Women's Studies, I find
that it is indexed in the following: Women's Studies Abstracts; American
Humanities Index; Human Resources Abstracts; Historical Abstracts; Studies
on Women Abstracts; Women's Studies Index. I can't say how long the
indexing has been done in each of these, but I found 3 items from 1979 on
Historical Abstracts and 17 on America: History and Life.
David Harley
Dept. of History
219 O'Shaughnessy
University of Notre Dame
Notre Dame IN 46556
219-631-7313
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 12:41:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Jennifer Ball <JenniferLBall@excite.com>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Holey sheets and morman boxers
I agree with Gail that it is generally associated with the sleeveless
undershirt worn by many working class males. Further, it is a particluar
image of the man who wears the undershirt in a way that exposes the garment
to others, not just their intimates [trangresses public mores]. It is
stereotypically code for someone "low class" which is a subtle difference
from working class. I would throw two other ideas into the mix. This
stereotype plays with a male "beast" image often associated with othered
groups of the male gender. And there's usually a sexual element to that wild
beast image. Also, an interesting corruption is the fact that the undershirt
is referred to, both by men and women, as a wifebeater whether worn by a man
or woman.
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Liz" <history@sentex.net>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Holey sheets and morman boxers
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 09:10:33 +0200
> more interesting (and somewhat disturbing) is the fact that teens call
> sleeveless men's undershirts "wifebeaters" - at least in NC.
In Pa and Ontario too - and I find it extremely disturbing. None of the
kids I have talked to - mine and nieces and nephews seem to think the name
at all incongruous.
Liz Waters Heinrichs
history@sentex.net
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 12:14:55 -0500 (EST)
From: Leslie Ambedian <ambedian@yorku.ca>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Holey sheets and morman boxers
On Tue, 6 Mar 2001, Liz wrote:
>> > more interesting (and somewhat disturbing) is the fact that teens call
> > sleeveless men's undershirts "wifebeaters" - at least in NC.
>> In Pa and Ontario too - and I find it extremely disturbing. None of the
> kids I have talked to - mine and nieces and nephews seem to think the name
> at all incongruous.
>> Liz Waters Heinrichs
> history@sentex.net
>
Do you think it's a (probably unwitting) Stanley Kowalski reference? I get
this Marlon Brando image...
-Leslie
***
Leslie Ambedian "Soylent Green [...] is not people.
ambedian@wiznet.ca Soylent Green is kittens. We apologise
or ambedian@yorku.ca for the error."
http://www.wiznet.ca/~ambedian
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 12:21:17 -0500
From: Gail Bederman <Gail.Bederman.1@nd.edu>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Holey sheets and morman boxers
>>>Do you think it's a (probably unwitting) Stanley Kowalski reference? I get
>this Marlon Brando image...
Yes--exactly so. Or, rather, I think it draws on the same stereotypes
that made the costume designer dress Stanley Kowalski, playing poker
and swilling beer, in his underwear.
In a US context, I think the term "wifebeater" is clearly an
(unwarranted) assumption that working class men are more likely to
beat their wives than middle-class men. It's an "anti-Redneck"
reference, IMHO.
Gail
___________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 13:05:16 -0500
From: David Nicholas Harley <David.N.Harley.4@nd.edu>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Holey sheets and morman boxers
>>Do you think it's a (probably unwitting) Stanley Kowalski reference? I get
>>this Marlon Brando image...
>>Yes--exactly so. Or, rather, I think it draws on the same stereotypes
>that made the costume designer dress Stanley Kowalski, playing poker
>and swilling beer, in his underwear.
>>In a US context, I think the term "wifebeater" is clearly an
>(unwarranted) assumption that working class men are more likely to
>beat their wives than middle-class men. It's an "anti-Redneck"
>reference, IMHO.
Unsystematic research among my students suggests that there are also
regional variations, such as "a Guido", which perhaps play on stereotypes
about recent immigrants from Europe, but which may simply reflect the
greater use of cotton singlets, rather than teeshirts, as male underwear in
Europe. I agree about the class stereotyping in "wifebeater", which has
been clearly apprehended by my informants.
David Harley
Dept. of History
219 O'Shaughnessy
University of Notre Dame
Notre Dame IN 46556
219-631-7313
___________________________________________________________________From: "Liz" <history@sentex.net>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Holey sheets and morman boxers
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 14:08:04 +0200
>> Do you think it's a (probably unwitting) Stanley Kowalski reference? I get
> this Marlon Brando image...
>> -Leslie
Actually that might be it as I had the Brando image flit through my mind
too,
Liz
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 13:02:40 -0800
From: julian carter <jcarter@leland.stanford.edu>
Subject: [histsex] Streetcar underwear
Colleagues,
2 cents on "wifebeaters" and their class connotations. Yes, costuming
Stanley Kowalski in his undershirt communicated something about his class,
and there's a definite connection between his "no-collar" masculinity and
his violence toward Stella. But there's also there's an erotics at work
here. When the play was first produced and then filmed, men didn't walk
around in t-shirts in public, so people responded with the cultural
understanding that he was in fact in his underwear: that is, more than half
undressed. The potency suggested by Kowalski's aggressive slovenliness
suggests that he, and men like him, offer middle-class white women a sexual
thrill that makes all their suffering worthwhile. I can't remember where,
but I know I've read a very persuasive essay on Streetcar that points out
how explicit Williams is about the sexual nature of the bond between
husband and wife, which bridges their class differences (and shocks the
bejeezus out of refined sister Blanche, thus getting the drama in motion).
Julian
___________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 16:30:12 -0500
From: Courtney Shah <courtney@dog.com>
Subject: RE: [histsex] Streetcar underwear
This reminds me of an interesting moment in popular culture. At some point in
the 1930s, Clark Gable did a scene in a movie where he took off his shirt, and
was not wearing an undershirt. Sales of undershirts plummetted. Ah, the
influence of film...
Courtney
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 16:39:17 -0500 (EST)
From: Leslie Ambedian <ambedian@yorku.ca>
Subject: RE: [histsex] Streetcar underwear
On Tue, 6 Mar 2001, Courtney Shah wrote:
>> This reminds me of an interesting moment in popular culture. At some
> point in the 1930s, Clark Gable did a scene in a movie where he took
> off his shirt, and was not wearing an undershirt. Sales of
> undershirts plummetted. Ah, the influence of film...
>> Courtney
"It Happened One Night" 1934, with Claudette Colbert.
So we have a sexually-charged moment where we realize that Gable, although
*apparently* fully dressed, isn't. The question is, did underwear sales
plummet equally when Kramer on Seinfeld revealed that he was, ahem,
flying-free?
-Leslie
***
Leslie Ambedian "Soylent Green [...] is not people.
ambedian@wiznet.ca Soylent Green is kittens. We apologise
or ambedian@yorku.ca for the error."
http://www.wiznet.ca/~ambedian
___________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 16:41:45 -0500
From: David Nicholas Harley <David.N.Harley.4@nd.edu>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Holey sheets and morman boxers
the sleeveless undershirt worn by many working class males... the man who
wears the undershirt in a way that exposes the garment to others...
1.) Do we actually know the class distribution of singlets as opposed to
teeshirts, worn as underwear?
2.) Why is the exposure of a singlet, often worn by athletes, more
transgressive than the exposure of a teeshirt, often worn as underwear?
David Harley
___________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 17:04:32 -0500
From: David Nicholas Harley <David.N.Harley.4@nd.edu>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Streetcar underwear
Julian's point is well taken: "When the play was first produced and then
filmed, men didn't walk around in t-shirts in public, so people responded
with the cultural understanding that he was in fact in his underwear: that
is, more than half undressed." We might similarly observe a shift in the
eroticism associated with seeing a bra on screen after the introduction of
the bikini.
However, he speaks of Brando wearing a teeshirt, which is precisely
correct: see
http://stud-www.uni-marburg.de/~Blaschke/williams/images/asnd3.jpg
That then leaves us with the question, why is it the sleeveless
undergarment that is called the "wifebeater"? Does Jennifer's remark, "the
sleeveless undershirt worn by many working class males", point us in the
right direction or beg the question?
David Harley
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Healey D." <D.Healey@swansea.ac.uk>
Subject: RE: [histsex] Streetcar underwear
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 22:51:04 -0000
The first time I heard the term 'wifebeater' shirt was two summers ago in
London, from an English friend who had just bought one in one of his
frequent vain attempts to keep up with youth culture. I did not inquire
whether the label at Top Man (or was it H&M? all I know for sure is it
wasn't M&S) actually used this terminology.
Dan Healey
(a less than enthusiastic shopper)
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 18:20:30 -0500
From: David Nicholas Harley <David.N.Harley.4@nd.edu>
Subject: [histsex] Apology
During the hour since I wrote, speaking of Julian Carter, "he speaks of
Brando wearing a teeshirt", I have been deluged with mail that informs me
that our listmember is a woman, doing admirable work on 20th-century
sexologists.
I must apologize for this slipshod error.
I should have remembered Dame Julian of Norwich, one of my favourite
medieval mystics. I can only hope that my apology will be accepted, and
"that all shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of thing
shall be well."
David Harley
___________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 19:14:52 -0800
From: julian carter <jcarter@leland.stanford.edu>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Apology
David,
Indeed I was named for Dame Julian, and indeed all is well: not that I was
particularly offended in the first place, having been mistaken for many
more noxious things than male. But now all is even better, since your error
has led to my discovery that at least some of my colleagues actually know
who I am. That means rather a lot to me.
J.
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 20:03:01 -0800 (PST)
From: Jennifer Ball <JenniferLBall@excite.com>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Apology
David,
add my name to the list for apologies. I didn't realize Julian was a
woman's name.
Back to the topic of A-Shirts, a.k.a. "wifebeaters", "wifebeater" has that
specific connotation of low-class. However, as the other comments about
Brando suggest there is an undertone of sexual wildness, often read as
potency or strength[I'm not suggesting that is the read of those who brought
up Brando]. That's why I was wondering if "wifebeater" had several
connotations dependent upon the identity of the the reader and the wearer.
This makes me ask David what he thinks is the question.
Stating the obvious, A-shirts expose more skin, hair, and are more
form-fitting. I was thinking I should make that a gender specific analysis,
but I just thought of women who wear them and don't shave their armpits.
An earlier comment, posited how this all changes with the advent of more
revealing clothing. Another aspect to consider is the dissemination of the
fashion to other demographic groups.
In general, clothing which is sexually coded and read grounds many attitudes
& actions towards individuals.
Jen
___________________________________________________________________From: MillerJimE@aol.com
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 23:54:47 EST
Subject: Re: [histsex] Apology
In a message dated 03/06/2001 10:04:04 PM Central Standard Time,
JenniferLBall@excite.com writes:
<< Back to the topic of A-Shirts, a.k.a. "wifebeaters", "wifebeater" has that
specific connotation of low-class. However, as the other comments about
Brando suggest there is an undertone of sexual wildness, often read as
potency or strength[I'm not suggesting that is the read of those who brought
up Brando]. >>
It makes me think of the character of Billy in Midnight in the Garden of
Good and Evil. Billy was the boyfriend that Jim killed -- the boyfriend who
was known as "the good time not yet had by all". Billy wore the sleeveless
t-shirts, drank, did drugs, brawled, was physically abusive --- and was known
as one good roll in the hay for both gay men and women. Definitely popular
culture has made a link between sexual wildness and brawling, abusive
characteristics in other areas of life.
Jim Miller
___________________________________________________________________From: "Pablo Ben" <benpablo@hotmail.com>
Subject: [histsex] Lesbianism 19century and MEDEA
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 14:41:24 -0000
I am Pablo Ben, from Argentina and in this moment I am working on Argentine
images on women, men, normality and ôsexual inversionö (in both sexes). My
period is the end of the nineteenth century and the beggining of the
twentieth. I found some images of inverted women as metaphors of political
processes in some of the novels considered cannonical in this country.
In general, the images on ôinvertedö women are not explicited as such, so I
have to make the work of interpreting them as representations of members of
that medical category to make vissibility possible. A central character in a
novel is called Medea, she is a woman whose sex is ôdoubtfullö and is
simbolized as a tiger. Medea does many activities which were considered
unproper for women, as being a leading politician who leds the country to
catastrophic situations. Medea never had a child and didnt want to have it.
I consider this are ways for the author to mean her unwomanly manners as
ôinversionö, and my hypothesis is that the name ôMedeaö is important in this
retoric.
I know little about classical Greece, but I know there have been
interpretations on Euripides (the author of Medea) as a ôfeministö, I would
like to know if this interpretations are from the nineteenth century and who
were the authors. If anyone knows about this it would be of great help for
me.
Another thing I consider important is the fact that classical Greece was
used to symbolize sexual questions in the nineteenth century, but I should
state this in a more systematic way and have no bibliography for that. I
found no article or book on the nineteenth century about this, and the
production about Greece and the Ancient world normally does not consider the
history of its own historiography, or at least I dont know about it.
Finally, to understand women ôsexual inversionö in this period I read some
articles by George Chauncey, Lillian Faterman, John DEmilio and Stelle
Freedman, I would like to know what else can I read about this.
Thanks a lot for your interest and help. If anyone is interested in my
investigation, please write me and I would answer all your queries and send
my articles or any material I could have.
Sincerelly.
Pablo Ben.
___________________________________________________________________Date: 8 Mar 2001 16:54:44 -0000
From: "dick gifford" <dickgifford@2hb.net>
Subject: Re:[histsex] Lesbianism 19century and MEDEA
On Wed, 07 Mar 2001 14:41:24 -0000 Pablo Ben <benpablo@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Histsex:For historians of sexuality - http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah/listinf.htm
>Hi Pablo,
These books listed below have good bibliographies; and one or more of them might be found
either at <bibliofind.com> or <abebooks.com>:
Kestner, Joseph A. Mythology and Misogyny: The Social Discourse of Nineteenth-Century
British Classical-Subject Painting. Madison: Univ. of Wisconsin Pr., 1989. (hardcover only?)
Dijkstra, Bram. Idols of Perversity: Fantasies of Feminine Evil in Fin-de-Siecle Culture. London:
Oxford Univ. Pr., 1986. (avaliable as paperback)
Pointon, Marcia. Naked Authority: The Body in Western Painting 1830-1908. Cambridge,
England [etc.]: Cambridge Univ. Pr., 1990. (avaliable as paperback. Important. But I don't think
Medea is mentioned.)
Dick.
___________________________________________________________________From: "John Lauritsen" <jlaurits@capecod.net>
Subject: [histsex] Introducing myself
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 18:09:06 -0800
Greetings to all! I've just joined the list, and apparently am supposed
to describe
myself. As I've had a really hard day today, I think I'll just take the
easy way out
and post a bio I have sitting on my hard drive. Here it is:
John Lauritsen was graduated from Harvard College (AB 1963),
where he majored in Social Relations (an interdisciplinary
department comprising Anthropology, Psychology and Sociology).
After moving to New York City he entered the profession of survey
research, in which he was for two decades a senior executive and
analyst. During this time he increasingly devoted himself to
writing on various topics, including gay liberation, secular
humanism, and AIDS. He founded a book publishing company, Pagan
Press, in 1982. In 1987 he retired from survey research in order
to become a full-time writer and publisher.
Lauritsen has been active in the gay liberation movement
since the summer of 1969, when he joined the New York Gay
Liberation Front. He joined the Gay Activists Alliance in
1974, and served as Delegate-At-Large. And in the same year he
joined the Gay Academic Union, of which he later became a National
Director. During its existence he was a member of the Columbia
University Seminar on Homosexualities.
With the advent of the gay health crisis in the early 80s,
Lauritsen became an investigative journalist and a leading AIDS
critic. His main outlet was the New York Native, which from
1985 to 1996 published over 50 of his articles. These articles
have been described by a science correspondent and medical
correspondent of the _Sunday Times_ (London) as "the most
trenchantly informative, irreverent, funny and tragic writing
of the Aids years" (Neville Hodgkinson, _Aids: The Failure of
Contemporary Science_, London 1996).
In addition to the _Native_, John Lauritsen's articles
have appeared in publications as diverse as _Gay Books
Bulletin_, _Gay Times_ (London), _Civil Liberties Review_,
_The Freethinker_ (London), _Journal of Homosexuality_,
_Christopher Street_, _Bio/Technology_ and _The Lancet_. His
writings have been translated into German, Italian, French,
Spanish, Danish, Swedish, and Norwegian.
He is currently on the Editorial Boards of _Reappraising AIDS_
(La Jolla, California) and _Continuum_ (London).
His first book, co-authored with David Thorstad, was _The
Early Homosexual Rights Movement (1864-1935)_ (New York 1974;
Second Revised Edition, Ojai, California 1995). This seminal
work, continuously in print since 1974, uncovered the forgotten
history of the gay movement of the 19th and the early 20th
century. Other books include: (editor) John Addington Symonds,
_Male Love: A Problem in Greek Ethics and other writings_ (New
York 1983); (with Hank Wilson) _Death Rush: Poppers [Nitrite
Inhalants] and AIDS_ (New York 1986); _Poison By Prescription:
The AZT Story_ (New York 1990); _The AIDS War: Propaganda,
Profiteering and Genocide from the Medical-Industrial Complex_
(New York 1993); (co-edited with Ian Young) _The AIDS Cult:
Essays on the gay health crisis_ (Provincetown 1997); and _A
Freethinker's Primer of Male Love_ (Provincetown 1998).
Lauritsen is now a year-round resident of Provincetown.
___________________________________________________________________From: Lesley Hall <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>
Subject: [histsex] 1930s lesbian novel
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 15:27:44 GMT
A correspondent has asked me if I know anything about
a 'mild, but unmistakeable' lesbian novel by D L
Lodden, _Do They Remember_, published by Mitre Press
(possibly a vanity operation) in 1933. It doesn't ring
any bells with me - does anyone know anything at all
about the book or the author?
Thanks
Lesley
Lesley Hall
lesleyah@primex.co.uk
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 08:30:41 -0800
From: "Dr. David Hersh" <Dr_Sex@netidea.com>
Subject: [histsex] 50s lesbian novel
Here's a story for you historians...
Of the lesbian novels of the 50s, one of the authors was named Ann
Bannon. One of the books she wrote was _Odd Girl Out_. The story is that
Ann (I don't recall her real last name) was a professor or English at
California State University, Sacramento during the 60s and 70s. She wrote
these novels while a grad student at Columbia, and they were ordinary
heterosexual novels. When she tried to sell her first one, the publisher
said he was interested if there were an unusual twist and suggested that
she change the characters to lesbians. She did so. When I knew her during
the 70s, she was in her 40s or 50s and was married with children. It is my
recollection that sometime after her children were gone, she divorced and
came out. This details of the last sentence are apochryphal, as my memory
may be fallible.
David Hersh
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David S. Hersh, Ed.D., FAACS
Clinical Sexologist
http://Doctor-Sex.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
___________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 10:00:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Mireille Miller-Young <mireille_creates@yahoo.com>
Subject: [histsex] Black Women in Historic Porn and Funding Opps
Dear Friends,
Let me begin by introducing myself: my name is
Mireille Miller-Young and I'm a Ph.D. Candidate in the
History Department at NYU. Pleased to meet you all.
I am seeking any information folks may have in terms
of sources, contacts, leads, whatever concerning my
dissertation research: the visual
representation/presentation of black women in early
pornography/erotica (turn of century to 1960s). This
includes photography and film media or both actors and
unwilling participants (such as eroticized scientific
studies of black female slaves or native women in
empire). Any links people may have with jazz
musicians and the black sexual world. Any info on
links between international pornography or
sexualization of native bodies, and American porn (the
exchange of erotic media, technology, aesthetics,
capital, etc.). Any particular films, sites, texts,
actresses that are still around or may have archives,
private sources of stag films that feature black
women, etc. would be useful. I do plan to go to Kinsey
and have strong sources in the NYC area, but I'd love
to know if anyone has good advice on this unchartered
topic.
In addition, I am seeking funding to attend the Summer
Institute on Sexuality, Culture and Society at the
Universiteit van Amsterdam this summer and am in
desperate need of leads on small, summer grants for
study/research. Please direct me to opportunities that
may be geared towards this project.
Thank you in advance for your help!
All the best,
Mireille Miller-Young
mireille_creates@yahoo.com
___________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 09:38:25 +0000
From: "Sam Pryke" <PRYKES@HOPE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Black Women in Historic Porn and Funding Opps
I can only think of a few interesting remarks in Malcolm X's autobiography,=
that expect you know. During the period when he was working as a pimp in =
NYC in the early 50's he relates how he would arrange private Black sex =
shows for rich whites, including people like racist Southern senators. I =
think he remarks that his clients would would want as Black as possible.
SAM PRYKE
___________________________________________________________________
From: "John Lauritsen" <jlaurits@capecod.net>
Subject: [histsex] Shelley Translation of Plato: The Banquet
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 13:21:02 -0800
Pagan Press
Box 1902
Provincetown
MA 02657-0245
1 508 487-8369
jlaurits@capecod.net
15 March 2001
Shelley's Translation of Plato's Banquet
Pagan Press has published a new edition of Percy Bysshe
Shelley's translation of Plato's dialogue, THE BANQUET (more
commonly known as The Symposium).
Witty, sexy and radiantly beautiful, the Shelley translation
of Plato's great Dialogue on Love is by far the best in the
English language. It has been described as conveying "much of the
vivid life, the grace of movement, and the luminous beauty of
Plato" -- "the poetry of a philosopher rendered by the prose of a
poet".
Although a masterpiece in its own right, the Shelley
translation is unknown even to most students of English
literature. Amazingly, it was suppressed and then bowdlerized for
well over a century. In 19th century Britain, male love -- at the
heart of the dialogue -- was unmentionable. (Until the middle of
the 19th century, males in that benighted country, including
adolescent boys, were still being hanged for having sex with each
other.) THE BANQUET and Shelley's accompanying essay, "A
Discourse on the Manners of the Antient Greeks", were not
published in their entirety until 1931, and then in an edition of
100 copies intended "for private circulation only".
For many years, the Shelley translation has been
unobtainable, new or used. Pagan Press now offers a new edition,
which is complete, authentic, and readable.
John Lauritsen, editor and publisher of the new edition, has
stated:
"In the canon of great books dealing with male love,
Shelley's translation of Plato's BANQUET belongs at the head
of the list. It is deplorable that this masterpiece has
suffered first suppression, then bowdlerization, and finally
neglect. It should be available to readers now, and for so
long as the English language lives."
# # #
For information on ordering, contact: jlaurits@capecod.net
Plato: THE BANQUET. Translated by Percy Bysshe Shelley. 96
pages. $8.00 (trade paperback) ISBN 0-943742-12-9. Pagan Press.
Publication date: May 2001.
___________________________________________________________________Date: Wed,
14 Mar 2001 22:51:36 -0800
From: Jack Kolb <kolb@ucla.edu>
Subject: [histsex] What Pornos Would Have Us Believe
[forwarded by PBenoit. JK]
Thirty things porno producers would have us believe...
1. Women wear high heels to bed.
2. Men are never impotent.
3. When going down on a woman, 10 seconds is
more than satisfactory.
4. If a woman gets busted masturbating by a strange man,
she will not scream with embarrassment, but rather
insist he have sex with her.
5. Women smile appreciatively when men splat them
in the face with sperm.
6. Women enjoy having sex with ugly, middle-aged men.
7. Women moan uncontrollably when giving a blowjob.
8. Women always orgasm when men do.
9. A blowjob will always get a woman out of a
speeding fine.
10. All women are noisy fucks.
11. People in the 70's couldn't fuck unless there was
a wild guitar solo in the background.
12. Those tits are real.
13. A common and enjoyable sexual practice for a man
is to take his half-erect penis and slap it repeatedly
on a woman's butt.
14. Men always groan "OH YEAH!" when they cum.
15. If there is two of them they "high five" each other.
(and the girl isn't disgusted!)
16. Double penetration makes women smile.
17. Asian men don't exist.
18. If you come across a guy and his girlfriend having sex
in the bushes, the boyfriend won't bash seven shades of
shit out of you if you shove your cock in his girlfriend's
mouth.
19. There's a plot.
20. When taking a woman from behind, a man can really excite
a woman by giving her a gentle slap on the butt.
21. Nurses suck patients cocks.
22. Men always pull out.
23. When your girlfriend busts you getting head from her
best friend, she'll only be momentarily pissed off
before fucking the both of you.
24. Women never have headaches... or periods.
25. When a woman is sucking a man's cock, it's important
for him to remind her to "suck it".
26. Assholes are clean.
27. A man ejaculating on a womans butt is a satisfying result
for all parties concerned.
28. Women always look pleasantly surprised when they open
a man's trousers and find a cock there.
29. Men don't have to beg.
and finally...
30. When standing during a blowjob, a man will always place
one hand firmly on the back of the kneeling woman's head,
and the other proudly on his hip.
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 16:01:00 -0800
From: "Dr. David Hersh" <Dr_Sex@netidea.com>
Subject: Re: [histsex] What Pornos Would Have Us Believe
At 10:51 PM 3/14/2001 -0800, Jack Kolb wrote:
>Thirty things porno producers would have us believe...
>> 1. Women wear high heels to bed.
Some do.
> 3. When going down on a woman, 10 seconds is more than satisfactory.
For some women, it is.
> 4. If a woman gets busted masturbating by a strange man, she will not
> scream with embarrassment, but rather insist he have sex with her.
Some will.
> 5. Women smile appreciatively when men splat them in the face with sperm.
Some do.
> 6. Women enjoy having sex with ugly, middle-aged men.
There are all sorts of eroticisms.
> 7. Women moan uncontrollably when giving a blowjob.
Some do.
> 9. A blowjob will always get a woman out of a speeding fine.
Not always, but sometimes.
>10. All women are noisy fucks.
Not all, but many are.
>11. People in the 70's couldn't fuck unless there was a wild guitar solo
>in the background.
Certainly better than fucking to rap.
>12. Those tits are real.
How real?
>13. A common and enjoyable sexual practice for a man is to take his
>half-erect penis and slap it repeatedly on a woman's butt.
Probably not too common, but probably not too uncommon, either.
>14. Men always groan "OH YEAH!" when they cum.
Not always, but sometimes.
>15. If there is two of them they "high five" each other. (and the girl
>isn't disgusted!)
Some do.
>16. Double penetration makes women smile.
It does for some.
>19. There's a plot.
Rarely, but sometimes.
>20. When taking a woman from behind, a man can really excite a woman by
>giving her a gentle slap on the butt.
Not too uncommon.
>21. Nurses suck patients cocks.
Some do.
>22. Men always pull out.
Some do.
>23. When your girlfriend busts you getting head from her best friend,
>she'll only be momentarily pissed off before fucking the both of you.
Possibly.
>25. When a woman is sucking a man's cock, it's important for him to
>remind her to "suck it".
Some women appreciate that.
>26. Assholes are clean.
Some are.
>27. A man ejaculating on a womans butt is a satisfying result for all
>parties concerned.
Possibly.
>28. Women always look pleasantly surprised when they open a man's
>trousers and find a cock there.
Not always, but at times.
>29. Men don't have to beg.
Some don't.
>30. When standing during a blowjob, a man will always place one hand
>firmly on the back of the kneeling woman's head, and the other proudly on
>his hip.
Just one of the many positions.
Humorous, but where do you think these producers get their ideas?
David
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David S. Hersh, Ed.D., FAACS
Clinical Sexologist
http://Doctor-Sex.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
___________________________________________________________________Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 06:16:17 -0700
From: Tim Hodgdon <tim.hodgdon@asu.edu>
Subject: Re: [histsex] What Pornos Would Have Us Believe
I understand Dr. David Hersch's point, that "some do."
Still, can't help but be reminded of Virginia Woolf's lines:
"Surely it was time someone invented a new plot, or that the author came
out from the bushes."
Unless, of course, the audience will pay lots of money not to hear a
different side of the story.
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 12:25:12 -0500
From: "Lisa Johnson" <ljohnson@westga.edu>
Subject: [histsex] porn/class
Dear List: Yesterday was the Friday before spring break at my
university. I approached my lesson plan in the manner of tv producers
during sweeps week. I promised nudity, more to the point, I promised
porn. It's a freshman composition course, Writing about Literature, in
which I've thematized literature and social class. We looked at images
from Edward Manet's masterpiece, "Olympia," to the March 1999 issue of
_Hustler_.
Drawing on Laura Kipnis' reading of Hustler as a form of class unrest
and political critique, I led the students in a discussion of the
relationship between kinds of nakedness and connotations of social
class, from the reserved "tasteful" nudes one finds in museums to the
"split wet beaver" or "gash" shots of Hustler. I pointed out that
notions of "respectability" can be seen as an intersection of social
class and gender roles in the service of cultural controls over
sexuality.
A student later posed the question to our class listserv, does social
class correspond with kinds of nudity in other cultures besides
American. I responded that the history of porn suggests something
similar in Great Britain, but my knowledge of porn and social class in
other cultures is limited. Can anyone fill me in or point me in a
research direction? Many thanks.
Lisa Johnson
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Visiting Assistant Professor
Dept. of English & Philosophy
State University of West Georgia
Carrollton, GA 30118
ljohnson@westga.edu
"Now and then a committed college professor opened my mind to the
reality that the classroom could be a place of passion and possibility,
but, in general, at the various colleges I attended it was the place
where the social order was kept in place."
~bell hooks, "Coming to Class Consciousness," _Where We Stand_, pg. 36.
_________________________
___________________________________________________________________From: Lesley Hall <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>
Subject: [histsex] Female friendship - or more?
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 11:01:18 GMT
I have recently been asked for my thoughts on a series
of postcards exchanged between 2 British women between
1900-1912. One of them (Ethel) would appear to have
been married and possibly to have had a child, from
references in the messages. The messages that I have
seen are mainly Ethel's to Amy. She uses phrases like
'my own sweetheart' as well as 'your old chum'; 'am
never miserable when you are with me, my own sweet
darling', ' Wish I was with you again tonight. That's
just it, the more I get of you the more I want', 'I
wish you were here just now so that I could kiss you',
' You was a perfect darling last night and I could
have hugged you all night', 'I love you better than
any other woman or girl on earth and I know you love
me my own sweetheart. Don't laugh when you read this
as it all comes straight from the heart of your
devoted friend', 'I comforted myself with thinking of
those exquisite Xs that you gave me'. Warm female
affection or something more? Opinions would be very
welcome.
There are a couple of lines on one of the postcards
from Ethel 'I am sorry I cannot send you any good news
about you know what. I shall take another lot tonight
and if that does no good I shall get desperate' -
which sounds to me like a pregnancy scare and use of
an abortifacient. Comments?
Many thanks for any thoughts on this.
Lesley Hall
lesleyah@primex.co.uk
___________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 11:18:54 +0000
From: "Sam Pryke" <PRYKES@hope.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: [histsex] porn/class
As it happens there was a good article by Martin Amis in the Guardian on =
Saturday that stressed the proletarian aspects of the LA porn industry =
=AF so far as the actors are concerned at least. Class and porn in =
Britain? Well, it is a while since I looked at any of the top shelf mags =
sold in newsagents here, but I remember they have a readers' wives section =
which is very obviously, almost stereotypically, working class.
SAM PRYKE
___________________________________________________________________From: JNKATZ1@aol.com
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 07:21:15 EST
Subject: Re: [histsex] Female friendship - or more?
I think that the useful historical questions to ask of that very interesting
material is NOT what identity categories these women fall into from our
viewpoint, but what behaviors and what emotions are reported. It is useful
to ask, I think, what the evidence suggests about any identity categories
that THEY BACK THEN might have employed, IF ANY. Great stuff. Jonathn Ned
Katz
___________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: [histsex] Female friendship - or more?
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 09:20:24 -0600
From: "Michael J. Murphy" <mjmurphy@artsci.wustl.edu>
Lesley,
The medium of exchange of information is very interesting: postcards.
These women write at the height of the postcard collecting craze in
Europe and America. Postcards made correspondence very cheap and
efficient mail delivery made them almost telephonic in their speed of
communication. It's interesting that a necessary condition of the
postcard medium--availability to scrutiny by prying eyes--corresponds
with the development of a communication code that assumes knowledge on
the part of the recipent such that it only be referred to obliquely. The
public medium generates a private mode of reference. Once again the
technologies of modernity publish homosexuality in the form of a
secret--the closet rears its ugly head. What's interesting here is the
self-closeting (and uncloseting) of the correspondents within the medium
of postcards: perhaps chosen for speed and ease, perhaps for their
fashionability, but perhaps for the writers' penurious condition? In any
case it's the dance of the public and private which fascinates me here.
Mike Murphy
___________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: [histsex] porn/class
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 09:20:24 -0600
From: "Michael J. Murphy" <mjmurphy@artsci.wustl.edu>
Lisa,
I would respond that a huge variety of systems of bodily
signification--tattoos, fashion, makeup, etc.-- appear on this planet and
are both specific to and considerably variant within a given culture.
These systems frequently correspond to social 'class' or status, but of
course cannot be crassly 'decoded' as such. However, the concept of
'nudity' carries a specific valence within Euro-American cultures
historically and should not be confused with 'nakedness.' In art the
'nude' has been an approved and valorized representational category and
aesthetic mode associated with the highest moral character, heroic
athleticism and often sexual purity. It does connote 'social class;' but
not so much that of the subject depicted as it does of the viewing
subject.
You're corect, of course, to point out the formal similarities of Manet's
Olympia and pornographic photography. But it is important to note that
Manet's painting generated a scandal as much for its subject's
deshabillement as for its image of a visually self-conscious and sexually
assertive 'courtesan' within an exhibitionary space of fine art, where
the proper bourgeoise might happen upon it without warning (horreur!). It
was not simply the fact of her disclothed state that rankled but Manet's
choice to represent her within the discursive frame of photographic
pornography, and thereby refusing the invisible cloak of morality which
covers all artistic nudes, which revealed Olympia to be 'naked' and a
legitimate locus for controversy.
So the question becomes, is Olympia's appearance sans-frock sufficient to
signal her class status, or should we point to subtle nuances in the
manner of representing the unclothed (and the presence of invisible
clothing as it were) and modes of reacting to such in order to observe
the signifying formations of social class around visual objects?
best,
Michael J. Murphy, M.A.
Doctoral Student, Dept. of Art History and Archaeology
Washington University, St. Louis
mjmurphy@artsci.wustl.edu
"An infinite mirror would no longer be a mirror" -Jean-Louis Baudry
___________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 10:49:15 -0500
From: David Nicholas Harley <David.N.Harley.4@nd.edu>
Subject: Re: [histsex] porn/class
Sam Pryke wrote:
>>>>
<smaller>As it happens there was a good article by Martin Amis in the
Guardian on Saturday that stressed the proletarian aspects of the LA porn
industry ¶ so far as the actors are concerned at least.</smaller>
I'm not sure I would call it a "good" article, but then I'm no fan of
Amis's authorial voice.
For non-UK listmembers, the first part of this article is online at:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4153718,00.html
At the bottom of the page there is a link to the second part:
http://books.guardian.co.uk/departments/politicsphilosophyandsociety/story/0,6000,458054,00.html
David Harley
Dept. of History
219 O'Shaughnessy
University of Notre Dame
Notre Dame IN 46556
219-631-7313
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 10:58:11 -0500
From: David Nicholas Harley <David.N.Harley.4@nd.edu>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Female friendship - or more?
Jonathan Ned Katz wrote:
>I think that the useful historical questions to ask of that very interesting
>material is NOT what identity categories these women fall into from our
>viewpoint, but what behaviors and what emotions are reported. It is useful
>to ask, I think, what the evidence suggests about any identity categories
>that THEY BACK THEN might have employed, IF ANY.
Cue, Rictor!
David Harley
Dept. of History
219 O'Shaughnessy
University of Notre Dame
Notre Dame IN 46556
219-631-7313
___________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 11:30:25 -0500
From: David Nicholas Harley <David.N.Harley.4@nd.edu>
Subject: Re: [histsex] porn/class
Michael J. Murphy wrote:
>You're corect, of course, to point out the formal similarities of Manet's
>Olympia and pornographic photography. But it is important to note that
>Manet's painting generated a scandal as much for its subject's
>deshabillement as for its image of a visually self-conscious and sexually
>assertive 'courtesan' within an exhibitionary space of fine art, where
>the proper bourgeoise might happen upon it without warning (horreur!). It
>was not simply the fact of her disclothed state that rankled but Manet's
>choice to represent her within the discursive frame of photographic
>pornography, and thereby refusing the invisible cloak of morality which
>covers all artistic nudes, which revealed Olympia to be 'naked' and a
>legitimate locus for controversy.
But had Manet chosen to display his subjects in a suitably "classical"
setting, as a mere pastiche of Giorgione, no controversy would have arisen
and he could have displayed his painting in an academic exhibition. It was
the mocking combination of the classical format and the mundane clothing of
the men that was so shocking. By using modern clothing, he effectively
rendered the nude naked.
David Harley
Dept. of History
219 O'Shaughnessy
University of Notre Dame
Notre Dame IN 46556
219-631-7313
___________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 13:11:51 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Sibalis <msibalis@wlu.ca>
Subject: Re: [histsex] porn/class
Olympia has no men in it, either clothed or unclothed (there is a black
female servant bringing flowers) -- David Harley is thinking of Dejeuner
sur l'Herbe, I believe. One of the things so shocking about Olympia was
the brazen way in which the nude meets our gaze.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Michael D. Sibalis
Associate Professor
Department of History
Wilfrid Laurier University
Waterloo, Ontario
CANADA N2L 3C5
(519)-884-0710 ext. 3141
msibalis@wlu.ca
___________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 14:31:40 +1100 (EST)
From: mimorris@netspace.net.au (Miranda E Morris)
Subject: [histsex] Immorality underground
X-posted Victoria-L
I am currently researching a convict coal mines site (1832 -1848) in
Tasmania (then Van Diemen's Land) which was closed down because of the
gross indecencies and unnatural acts purported to be occurring underground.
It strikes me that this was also the time when Britain was introducing its
Coal Mines Act (1842) preventing women and boys from working underground,
for reasons that had as much to do with morality as health; and I wondered
if anyone could point me in the direction of references to the underground
as metaphor for immorality, and the powerfulness of the metaphor in shaping
policy.
Miranda Morris
mimorris@netspace.net.au
Miranda Morris
mimorris@netspace.net.au
___________________________________________________________________From: Swamp1800@aol.com
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 23:05:00 EST
Subject: [histsex] "split wet beaver"
In a recent post Lisa Johnson mentioned "split wet beaver" in Hustler
magazine. Just yesterday I saw a wet beaver, quite a show. I live on an
island in the St. Lawrence River and the beaver in question was a Castor
canadensis. I have a web site on beavers and a friend of mine, who goes to
Beaver College, advised me to change the name of my web site. The college is
changing its name so that its web sites won't be blocked by filters designed
to save youth from smut.
What is the half-life of these radioactive words about sex? "Beaver" hasn't
been around a long time, but is the word's days in porno land numbered? And
is there a word out there that just needs a blockbuster movie to liberate it
and drive "split beaver" off the web? I'm partial to the word "quim."
"Quimshots" grabs me more than "beaver shots."
Then I keep thinking of using Indian words for beaver. These lovely animals
do have a characteristic call and the Ojibway word "amik" comes closer to it
than "beaver."
Bob Arnebeck
Wellesley Island, NY
http://hometown.aol.com/BeaveReality
___________________________________________________________________From: MillerJimE@aol.com
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 23:33:51 EST
Subject: Re: [histsex] "split wet beaver"
Indeed. My mother has a long association with Cub Scouting and has been
awarded the "Silver Beaver" award. Yet I always find a momentary discomfort
among my friends when I name the award. The discomfort is somewhat amplified
lately as I have been involved in public action on the Boy Scout policy on
gays. Should I mention my mother's award in connection with my involvement
on the issue I can see people sectioning off parts of their brain so that
unwanted associations do not spill over. Often the mental struggle is quite
visible (and a little humorous, but I cannot allow myself to laugh in these
solemn debates).
Jim Miller
___________________________________________________________________
From: MillerJimE@aol.com
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 23:57:34 EST
Subject: Re: [histsex] porn/class
In a message dated 03/19/2001 4:54:42 PM Central Standard Time,
ljohnson@westga.edu writes:
<< My discussion with my students had less to do with the reception of
"Olympia" at the time of its painting, and more to do with how upper
class people disdain porn (publicly) in favor of the more "tasteful" and
reserved images of art museums, >>
Discuss one of these museum pieces (except that only copies of the
original exist.)
I am thinking of Praxilites statue of Aphrodite carved for a temple in
Cnidus (Mid 4th century). Until this time male nudes were common in Greek
sculpture but females were always well clothed. Nude females to this point
only appeared in cheap media, such as vase paintings, and there only rarely.
The Aphrodite of Cnidus is the first "high class" artistic representation of
the female nude in Classical Greece, and was every bit as controversial as
Olympia. The issue is discussed in most art history books on Classical
Greece (e.g. John Boardman, Greek Sculpture: The Late Classical Period, p 54).
Jim Miller
___________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 17:02:46 +1200
From: "Walter Cook" <Walter.Cook@natlib.govt.nz>
Subject: Re: [histsex] "split wet beaver"
This is a North American problem. Emmigrate to New Zealand where the word "Beaver" denotes nothing other than an exotic furry animal which builds dams. I haven't heard the word "quim" used for over 30 years. The American use of "pussey" has gained ground over the last 20 years. Other than that we rely on our Anglo Saxon heritage (transmitted here via the Celtic fringe) and make do with "cunt." Cunt shots to my mind has a certain resonance with cum shots
Walter Cook
___________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 21:04:03 -0800 (PST)
From: Lynn Romer <lynnromer@yahoo.com>
Subject: [histsex] The poet Moncrieff?
I realize this is off the current topic, but I'm trying to find some historical/biographical info about
a poet named Moncrieff who wrote "When Gracia, beautiful, but faithless fair..." I'm not sure
whether it's C. K. Scott Moncrieff, and if so, if it could be within a translation of Proust? I can't
find anything on the Internet, so I'm hopeful there may be some romantic poetry scholars on this
news group who can help me out. I don't even know the title for the poem.
Thanks!
Lynn
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 21:18:22 -0800 (PST)
From: Lynn Romer <lynnromer@yahoo.com>
Subject: [histsex] Passage
Here's a complete passage from the Moncrieff "mystery poem."
"When Gracia, beautiful but faithless fair,
Who long in passion's bonds my heart had kept,
First with false blushes pitied my despair,
I smiled with pleasure!--
Should I have not wept?"
Lynn
___________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 11:08:08 -0500
From: "Lisa Johnson" <ljohnson@westga.edu>
Subject: [histsex] beaver
That's funny - I'm embarassed to tell people I went to Little Beaver
preschool in Asheville, North Carolina because of it's illicit parlance.
What is "quim"? Maybe I'll switch over and do my part in shifting the
cultural lexicon of erotica.
Lisa Johnson
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Visiting Assistant Professor
Dept. of English & Philosophy
State University of West Georgia
Carrollton, GA 30118
ljohnson@westga.edu
"Now and then a committed college professor opened my mind to the
reality that the classroom could be a place of passion and possibility,
but, in general, at the various colleges I attended it was the place
where the social order was kept in place."
~bell hooks, "Coming to Class Consciousness," _Where We Stand_, pg. 36.
___________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 11:11:20 -0500
From: "Lisa Johnson" <ljohnson@westga.edu>
Subject: [histsex] porn/class
I'm talking about *now* - the Venus de Milo is a yawn to most college
students, nothing exciting or illicit, whereas porn, well . . . it's
dirty.
Lisa Johnson
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Visiting Assistant Professor
Dept. of English & Philosophy
State University of West Georgia
Carrollton, GA 30118
ljohnson@westga.edu
"Now and then a committed college professor opened my mind to the
reality that the classroom could be a place of passion and possibility,
but, in general, at the various colleges I attended it was the place
where the social order was kept in place."
~bell hooks, "Coming to Class Consciousness," _Where We Stand_, pg. 36.
__________________________________
___________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 18:17:14 -0500
From: David Nicholas Harley <David.N.Harley.4@nd.edu>
Subject: Re: [histsex] porn/class
Mike,
>Here I think you refer to Manet's Dejeuner sur l'Herbe (1863)
You're quite right. Sorry. I was rushing between classes and my brain
short-circuited. Shifting gear from teaching the gendering of witchcraft
to the problem of women in the work of the Annales School was obviously too
much of a strain. I think I'll go and watch some basketball.
David
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 17:54:08 -0500
From: "Lisa Johnson" <ljohnson@westga.edu>
Subject: [histsex] porn/class
My discussion with my students had less to do with the reception of
"Olympia" at the time of its painting, and more to do with how upper
class people disdain porn (publicly) in favor of the more "tasteful" and
reserved images of art museums, and Hustler with its crass Beaver Hunt
aesthetic is aimed at the working class, and the question we're noodling
is why the nude female body is presented as increasingly open as one
descends the social class ladder of texts (from the closed legs and hand
concealing Olympia's "beaver" to images in Hustler of girls holding
their vulvas open with their fingers). And then the secondary question
raised by a student was whether this correspondance of social class and
various degrees of opened bodies occurs in cultures other than
American.
Lisa Johnson
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Visiting Assistant Professor
Dept. of English & Philosophy
State University of West Georgia
Carrollton, GA 30118
ljohnson@westga.edu
"Now and then a committed college professor opened my mind to the
reality that the classroom could be a place of passion and possibility,
but, in general, at the various colleges I attended it was the place
where the social order was kept in place."
~bell hooks, "Coming to Class Consciousness," _Where We Stand_, pg. 36.
_________________________________
___________________________________________________________________Subject: Re: [histsex] porn/class
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 16:39:58 -0600
From: "Michael J. Murphy" <mjmurphy@artsci.wustl.edu>
David,
Here I think you refer to Manet's Dejeuner sur l'Herbe (1863), and I
would agree with you that the contrast of unclothed females with clothed
men worked to render the nude naked. But reviewers were as concerned
about the strange visual field and irrational spatiality of the Dejeuner
as they were over the nudity/nakedness. But if I remember correctly there
are no persons conventionally understood as 'men' in Manet's Olympia:
only a black female servant, Olympia and of course the infamous black
cat. Here it is a physical self-consciousness and appropriation of the
gaze which consign Olympia to the realm of the naked rather than the
nude. As with much of Manet, his choice of title intentionally pokes fun
at the classicism of Giorgione, et al. which you mention.
Mike Murphy
___________________________________________________________________From: Swamp1800@aol.com
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 14:26:53 EST
Subject: Re: [histsex] beaver
Under "quim", Partridge writes: "The female pudend: a vulg.: C. 17-20.
Variants, queme, quim-box, quimsby, quin, all obsolete except second, itself
ob. Grose, 2nd ed., suggests ex Sp. quemar, to burn. - Hence such C.19-20
compounds as quim-bush, -whiskers, -wig, the female public hair; q.-stake or
-wedge, the penis; q-sticker, a whoremonger: q-sticking or -wedging, and
quimming, sexual intercourse.
Walter mentions not hearing quim used for 30 years. I learned the word about
32 years ago from an English prof. Now, in what movie was the word used back
then?
Bob
___________________________________________________________________From: "Lesley Hall" <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [histsex] beaver
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 19:32:32 -0000
>Walter mentions not hearing quim used for 30 years. I learned the word
about
>32 years ago from an English prof. Now, in what movie was the word used
back
>then?
Wasn't it used extensively by Henry Miller? Whose books were enjoying a
major vogue some 30+ years ago (according to my recent reading on censorship
and anti-censorship in the UK).
Lesley Hall
lesleyah@primex.co.uk
website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
>
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Philip Stokes" <philip.stokes@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Immorality underground
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 16:37:06 -0000
Miranda,
An aspect which you might like to keep in mind is the suggestion that the
move to exclude women from mines was at least in part an effort to remove
competition for jobs perceived as for males.
Thus, in Michael Hiley's book Victorian Working Women [London: Gordon
Fraser, 1979], which is about the background to Arthur Munby's photo
collection of working women's images, we find evidence provided from Munby
and his women sources tending to reinforce this view.
There must be other material germane to the discussion, but I can't point to
it. Try Derek Hudson's Arthur Munby: man of two worlds?
Regards,
Philip Stokes
philip.stokes@btinternet.com
___________________________________________________________________From: "Philip Stokes" <philip.stokes@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [histsex] The poet Moncrieff?
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 16:12:22 -0000
Lynn,
I checked out Kilmartin's Guide, and neither there nor in the attics of =
my memory did I find a Proustian connection. Which of course says =
nothing about Moncrieff in other aspects. I'll be interested to observe =
any results breaking cover on the list.
Regards,
Philip Stokes
philip.stokes@btinternet.com
___________________________________________________________________From: "Philip Stokes" <philip.stokes@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [histsex] beaver
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 20:11:49 -0000
Quim was in relatively common parlance in the 40s English grammar school
that I attended, though probably not the major pudendal word even so. Its
great advantage in that context was that it could be mouthed silently in
class, and be recognised instantly by anyone able to see the "speaker." It
was thought - however fancifully - that there was a certain formal
similarity between the word/facial expression and the referent.
Philip Stokes
philip.stokes@btinternet.com
----- Original Message -----
From: <Swamp1800@aol.com>
To: <histsex@listbot.com>
Sent: 20 March 2001 19:26
Subject: Re: [histsex] beaver
___________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 07:43:36 +1100 (EST)
From: mimorris@netspace.net.au (Miranda E Morris)
Subject: Re: [histsex] Immorality underground
Thanks Philip
I am sure you are right - given all the above ground attempts attempts at
getting rid of cheap labour. Sometimes too the morality aspect of these
debates is more an aim to feed public outrage to help achieve the changes
that have an underlying economic motives.
The Munby photos are and stories are particularly interesting because they
are such clear and strong images of working women - but the use of photos
of mining girls seem to have been voyeuristic.
thanks again
Miranda
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 09:49:32 +1200
From: "Walter Cook" <Walter.Cook@natlib.govt.nz>
Subject: Re: [histsex] beaver
Re "quim", I remember it was in common use in New Zealand in the 1950s and 60s, and among teanagers and young adult males. I didn't get the impression that it's use resulted from a particular event like a film or a novel. None of the country kids (or their parents) I grew up with would have been Hemmingway readers. Which brings me to the suggestion (which may not be relavent) that it may have been a survival of a common 19th century term. That TV programm of some years ago on the English language seemed to demonstrate that ways of speaking and the survival of words in use, resulted from where people came from and ways of speaking at the time colonial settlements were established. Though New Zealand never had the period of isolated separation as did North America and Australia.
Walter Cook
___________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 17:35:10 -0500
From: David Nicholas Harley <David.N.Harley.4@nd.edu>
Subject: Re: [histsex] beaver
Further on "quim", it occurs to me that there could be literary sources for
New Zealand usage.
James Joyce, Ulysses: Were you brushing the cobwebs off a few quims?
Henry Miller, Black Spring: "Now," he says, "I'm going to pay you as
usual," and taking a bill out of his pocket he crumples it and then shoves
it up her quim.
These might be thought a little esoteric for New Zealand youth, but Neville
Coghill's translation of the Canterbury Tales was probably in widespread
use as an O-Level crib: He made a grab and caught her by the quim And said,
"O God, I love you!" I don't have a copy of Chaucer to hand, but my
recollection of the text is that this was a mildly euphemistic rendering of
the more familiar word, "queynte", the modern spelling of which would have
been unacceptable in print.
And speaking of cod etymology, how about the Scots word, "queme", which has
a variety of meanings, including pleasing, beautiful and snug.
David Harley
Dept. of History
219 O'Shaughnessy
University of Notre Dame
Notre Dame IN 46556
219-631-7313
___________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 17:18:11 -0500
From: David Nicholas Harley <David.N.Harley.4@nd.edu>
Subject: Re: [histsex] beaver
Walter Cook writes:
Re "quim"...it may have been a survival of a common 19th century term.
David Harley:
1796: Grose, Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue: Quim, the private parts of a
woman: perhaps from the Spanish quemar, to burn
There are a few C18 printed references, quite a lot in the C19. Grose's
suggestion looks like cod etymology to me.
___________________________________________________________________Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 14:35:11 +0000
From: Ianthe <ianthe@duende.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [histsex] The poet Moncrieff?
In message <20010320050403.9204.qmail@web10104.mail.yahoo.com>,
Lynn Romer <lynnromer@yahoo.com> writes
> I realize this is off the current topic, but I'm trying to find
> some historical/biographical info about a poet named Moncrieff who
> wrote "When Gracia, beautiful, but faithless fair..." I'm not sure
> whether it's C. K. Scott Moncrieff, and if so, if it could be
> within a translation of Proust? I can't find anything on the
> Internet, so I'm hopeful there may be some romantic poetry scholars
> on this news group who can help me out. I don't even know the
> title for the poem.
He sounds very much like Scott Moncrieff - the translator of
Proust [ http://www.proust.com/moncrieff6.html ] and one of
the circle in which Wilfred Owen and Wilde's faithful friend
Robert Ross moved, among others...
"Back with his regiment in Scarborough, in the turret
room of his cliff-top hotel, Owen read De Profundis and
Sherard's biography of Wilde; his poems also took on a
new Wildean manner. He returned to London in January
1918 for Robert Graves' wedding at St James's,
Piccadilly, where he was introduced to C.K. Scott
Moncrieff, the Scottish poet and later translator of
Proust, recently wounded on the Western Front; he still
walked with a limp. He was also an Edwardian Uranian
boy-lover, author of Evensong and Morewesong ['Evensong
and morwe song'. London : Murray, 1923], a
'bravely obscene story of adolescent fellation', and
had come directly from a police court, where he had
been giving evidence at the trial of his sometime
lover, [ the bibliographer and publisher:
http://homepages.pavilion.net/users/tartarus/millard.html]
Christopher Millard (about to receive his second jail
sentence for sexual indecency). Owen was being drawn yet
further into the Wildean circle at a dangerous time.
These people were specific targets for Billing's attack,
already being drawn up in the offices of the Imperialist.
When Scott Moncrieff's closest friend, Philip Bainbrigge
(an owlish schoolmaster who shared his Uranian tastes)
told Owen in a Scarborough oyster bar that 'the whole of
civilisation is extremely liable to collapse', it was a
comment not only on the overwhelming German advance of
that spring, but also a presentiment for his kind."
[ http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/h/hoare-wilde.html ]
--
Ianthe
___________________________________________________________________From: Swamp1800@aol.com
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 10:54:34 EST
Subject: Re: [histsex] beaver
Well, this list doesn't promise solace for the troubled, and in my post about
"beaver," I tossed out "quim." Why should I be surprised that you've run with
that all the way to Scotland and haven't addressed the problem with "beaver"?
However, laying history aside for the moment, let me toss this analytical
bone out for you to gnaw: the beaver symbolizes emasculation. Indeed Pliny
and others retailed as fact the legend that beavers castrated themselves when
pursued, leaving their testicles behind, for that item, thought to be
medically potent, was what their pursuers were after. In Medieval times
priests held out the self-castrating beaver as an example to those who would
be holy. But we need go no further than a Budweiser Beer TV commercial to see
the beaver as emasculator. They cut down tall trees to stop and rob a beer
truck. So subliminally (or, how do we put it today, the sub text?) of "split
beaver" is long sharp teeth and a powerful biting jaw that fells, strips, and
segments big cocks.
Now, let's go back to Scotland with Sean Connery and Glenda Jackson in a
feature film based on a soon to happen event (once Foot and Mouth is over),
the reintroduction of beavers into Scotland. Connery, in this flick a devotee
of American sexual slang, is the first to notice the tall trees brought down.
And on the way to the sack announces to Glenda: "Tis no more a beaver I'll be
a-callin' that loch atween yer thighs. Dinna Bobby Burns call it nothing more
than a queme?" And Glenda curls her lips as only she can: "That's quim, you
silly fool. And it's Latin: vini, vidi, vici, quid quo quim. Let's to it."
And so language is purified and boys once again curl their lips properly.
Bob Arnebeck
Wellesley Island, NY
http://hometown.aol.com/BeaveReality
___________________________________________________________________From: "John Lauritsen" <jlaurits@capecod.net>
Subject: Re: [histsex] The poet Moncrieff?
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 11:10:10 -0800
I'm missed the first part of this thread. However, Charles Scott Moncrieff
translated The Song of Roland. I have a lovely Heritage Press edition done
in 1938.
John Lauritsen
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 12:50:26 -0500
From: David Nicholas Harley <David.N.Harley.4@nd.edu>
Subject: Re: [histsex] beaver
Bob Arnebeck writes:
However, laying history aside for the moment, let me toss this analytical
bone out for you to gnaw: the beaver symbolizes emasculation....So
subliminally (or, how do we put it today, the sub text?) of "split beaver"
is long sharp teeth and a powerful biting jaw that fells, strips, and
segments big cocks.
David Harley:
This flight of fancy is worthy of Lloyd deMause. "Beaver" was widespread
in the early 20th century as slang for a beard, or a bearded man. Hence
the 1920s game, in which one scored points for spotting beards and crying
"Beaver!" Thence the epithet for female pubic hair (late 1920s). And so
to the 1960s terms, "beaver films" and "beaver magazines", which developed
with changes in obscenity rulings.
No fancies about medieval (or modern) notions about castration seem
necessary, although I would point out that the sources are somewhat
earlier: Pliny, Natural History, 8.47.109; Claudius Aelianus, History of
Animals, 6.34. Only a beaver fan such as Bob Arnebeck is likely to recall
the connection between castor oil and castration.
___________________________________________________________________Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 13:00:49 -0500
From: "Lisa Johnson" <ljohnson@westga.edu>
Subject: [histsex] beards/beavers
The beards as beavers information is particularly illuminating, as the
awful trend in the U.S. over the last few years of the closely trimmed
goatee and mustache has often struck me as an embarassingly obvious
reproduction of "girl parts" on the face of a man, but I had no idea of
the historical connection. Then there's the related phenomenon of women
posing as gay men's girlfriends being called "beards."
Lisa
Lisa Johnson
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Visiting Assistant Professor
Dept. of English & Philosophy
State University of West Georgia
Carrollton, GA 30118
ljohnson@westga.edu
"Now and then a committed college professor opened my mind to the
reality that the classroom could be a place of passion and possibility,
but, in general, at the various colleges I attended it was the place
where the social order was kept in place."
~bell hooks, "Coming to Class Consciousness," _Where We Stand_, pg. 36.
__________________________________
___________________________________________________________________Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 13:00:30 -0500
From: David Nicholas Harley <David.N.Harley.4@nd.edu>
Subject: Re: [histsex] beaver
I have just recalled that Margaret Atwood recently popularized the ancient
myth concerning beavers, so perhaps Bob Arnebeck is not alone in making the
association. Thus, in the Canadian Hansard for 26 May 1999:
Ms. Wendy Lill (Dartmouth, NDP): Mr. Speaker, Margaret Atwood once said, in
the wake of the signing of the free trade agreement, that it is fitting
that Canada has as a national symbol the humble beaver, the animal which
when cornered bites off its own testicles and hands them to his adversaries.
David Harley
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 13:15:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Lynn Romer <lynnromer@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [histsex] The poet Moncrieff?
The first part of the thread had to do with my seeking historical info about a verse a Moncrieff penned in which he mentions "Gracia, beautiful but faithless fair..." Would that tie in at all with the song of Roland? I called some academic librarians about this yesterday, but they weren't able to solve this mystery either. They plugged "Gracia" into some kind of literary database and all that came up were two Spanish stories. One was entitled "Brother Ass" by Gregorio Martinez Sierra and featured a nun called Sister Gracia, and the other was a story entitled "Kingdom of God" by a writer named Barrios. I came across a wonderful poem entitled "Gracia" by Ella Wheeler Wilcox. In it "Gracia" is revealed to have a personality quite similar to that of the Gracia in Moncrieff's poem. In essence, earthly men are not good enough for her, as sunshine and sweet kisses run through her blue veins, rather than blood. Only gods like Apollo will do for her, and even they are not quite good enough. Men should be content to merely have had the pleasure to dally with her, for she will be no mortal man's.
If anyone knows of any other literary Gracias in history, I'd love to learn about them. Thanks for your help!
Lynn
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 22:13:21 -0700 (MST)
From: Tim Hodgdon <Tim.Hodgdon@asu.edu>
Subject: Re: [histsex] beards/beavers
On Sat, 24 Mar 2001, Lisa Johnson wrote:
> The beards as beavers information is particularly illuminating, as the
> awful trend in the U.S. over the last few years of the closely trimmed
> goatee and mustache has often struck me as an embarassingly obvious
> reproduction of "girl parts" on the face of a man. . . .
A new way of looking at it. I have always interpreted the recent goatee
craze as another form of ironic (or perhaps derisive) commentary on the
whole notion of "naturalness" that was so much a part of hip fashion in
the 1960s and 1970s. Though I don't follow David Savran as far as he goes,
my guess is that the goatee, like the shaved head, is a way of saying that
one is "man enough to take it"--regardless of one's genitalia. But of
course, that's not the only possible meaning.
Tim Hodgdon
Ph.D. candidate
Department of History
Arizona State University
Tim.Hodgdon@asu.edu
___________________________________________________________________From: "mstrygirl" <mstrygirl@netzero.net>
Subject: Re: [histsex] beaver
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 11:15:54 -0800
Hello all. I've never written before, so I'll take the time to introduce
myself before I begin with Mr. Arnebeck.
My name is Cheri Lackey, and though I am not a professor of any college, or
anything cool like that, I am, and allways have been, facinated with the
historical look on sex. So when I found this sight I was exited and have
enjoyed the conversations very much.
Now...Mr. Arnebeck. I'm sencing a little hostility here. Do you actually
think that we could help you with this problem? I mean, don't get me wrong,
I agree with you that it's a shame that such a beautiful animal has to take
seconds to a well know slang word...but what can we do abut it? The fact is
that people enjoy using slang...ie wifebeaters..which by the way is very
well known in California, in the gang circles mostly. Anyway my point is
that I'm not seeing yours. Maybe I missed something along the way other
than the fact that you're angry about something that no one can control.
Cheri Lackey
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Alison Oram" <alison@orangetree.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: [histsex] Lambda - and Artemis
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 17:15:14 +0100
Dear List members,
I wonder if anyone can help me with a couple of queries.
The first is about the origins and reasons for the use of the Greek term =
Lambda (a letter in the Greek alphabet) to signify gay sexuality. Gay =
dictionaries state that the term began to be used, particularly in =
America, from about 1970, for instance in the names of gay liberation =
organisations. But why that letter in particular? (I'm sure I knew =
this once and have forgotten.) And has anyone else come across its use =
before c.1970 to suggest homosexuality?
My second query concerns Artemis as a lesbian icon - or at any rate as a =
Greek mythological figure whose story can be given a lesbian reading. =
I'm convinced I've read an article which discusses this at some length, =
but now I need to use it as a reference, can't find it. My classical =
education, such as it was, had great holes in it! =20
Any help on these will be very gratefully received.....
Thanks,
Alison Oram
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Lesley Hall" <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [histsex] beards/beavers
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 18:12:56 +0100
The game 'beaver' which appears to have been current in the early 1920s, in
which points were scored for sightings of particular types and colours of
beards, features in one of the early Aldous Huxley novels - the hero (if one
can thus describe the central male figure in Huxley's novels...) actually
puts on a false beard in order to attract female attention. My mind has
however gone blank on the title - might be _These Barren Leaves_??
Lesley Hall
lesleyah@primex.co.uk
website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
___________________________________________________________________Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 12:39:14 -0500
From: David Nicholas Harley <David.N.Harley.4@nd.edu>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Lambda - and Artemis
Alison Oram wrote:
>>>>
The first is about the
origins and reasons for the use of the Greek term Lambda (a letter in the
Greek alphabet) to signify gay sexuality. Gay dictionaries state that the
term began to be used, particularly in America, from about 1970, for
instance in the names of gay liberation organisations. But why that
letter in particular? (I'm sure I knew this once and have forgotten.)
And has anyone else come across its use before c.1970 to suggest
homosexuality?
David Harley:
It was adopted in 1970 by the New York Gay Activists Alliance, a
breakaway from the GLF. The story is that Tom Doerr suggested it because
of its scientific use to designate kinetic potential (actually wave
length, but never mind!). It was stated to signify "a complete exchange
of energy". Unfortunately, the early GAA archives were destroyed by
arson, but it should be possible to track the pamphlets down, and there
may be relevant material at the NY Public Library, in the International
Gay Information Center Archives. See also perhaps Arthur Bell, "Dancing
the Gay Lib Blues" (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1971). (For photos of
Doerr and others wearing the symbol in 1970, see
http://gaytoday.badpuppy.com/garchive/viewpoint/071999vi.htm)
On the spread of the symbol, see "History of the Gay and Lesbian Lambda"
by Ernie Potvin, ONE-IGLA Bulletin #1, Spring 1995:
http://www.usc.edu/isd/archives/oneigla/bulletin/articles/Lambda.html
In 1974, the lambda was subsequently adopted by the International Gay
Rights Congress held in Edinburgh, Scotland. Subsequently, various other
historical associations have been tacked on, but it seems to have been
created de novo in 1970, which would suggest that previous uses have been
assimilated in a mythopoeic manner.
David Harley
Dept. of History
219 O'Shaughnessy
University of Notre Dame
Notre Dame IN 46556
219-631-7313
___________________________________________________________________
From: "John Lauritsen" <jlaurits@capecod.net>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Lambda - and Artemis
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 14:01:27 -0800
The Lambda was coined as a symbol by the Gay Activists Alliance in New =
York City in 1970. Apparently the lambda is a symbol of "activity" in =
physics or electrical engineering or whatever.
John Lauritsen
author: A Freethinker's Primer of Male Love
___________________________________________________________________
From: Swamp1800@aol.com
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 14:50:09 EST
Subject: Re: [histsex] beaver
Cheri,
I'm not at all angry. My tongue is in my cheek. The beavers don't care a fig
for our language, and what people say doesn't interfere with my relationships
with them. A few days I see more beavers than people. However, how language
changes is interesting, and I'm intrigued with the idea that as people learn
more about beavers the animal, it might change the way they use the word
"beaver" in sex slang. In the US the beaver population is increasing and
reintroduction is planned in Scotland and I believe has been done in France.
As for this discussion, it is progressing well enough for me. I've learned a
bit about the word "quim" from chaps who used it genuinely, i.e., didn't pick
it up from books. The transition from beaver/beard to beaver/cunt seems like
the stuff of a scholarly paper (not by me, I ain't a scholar.) Of course, the
"wifebeaters" discussion got me thinking about this. It's not quite the same.
There are other words that describe both animals and a sex organ, cock, for
example. And then the word "bitch" is used without blinking in describing
animals. Still, I think "beaver" a much more interesting case.
Bob Arnebeck
http://hometown.aol.com/BeaveReality (and should I go with the flow and say:
dozens of candid beaver-shots!)
___________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 08:44:14 +1200
From: "Walter Cook" <Walter.Cook@natlib.govt.nz>
Subject: Re: [histsex] beaver
David, The literary uses of "quim" would have affected a few people here, but Scottish habits of speach may have had more impact. Unfortunataly the recently published dictionary of New Zealand English only deals with the history of those words judged to have a particular local usage, and therefore a specific relevance to the current fantasy of a NATIONAL IDENTITY. What is cod etymology?
Walter Cook
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 08:55:35 +1200
From: "Walter Cook" <Walter.Cook@natlib.govt.nz>
Subject: Re: [histsex] beaver
Sir, your sophistry is wonderous. But if "beaver" is the mass psychosis you suggest, who can blame anyone from escaping into the simplicities of "quim"
walter Cook
___________________________________________________________________Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 16:14:23 -0500
From: David Nicholas Harley <David.N.Harley.4@nd.edu>
Subject: Re: [histsex] beaver
Walter Cook asked:
What is cod etymology?
<