HISTSEX ARCHIVES: June-2 July 2001
© Lesley Hall and list contributors
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 00:17:21 -0700
Subject: Re: [histsex] Homosexuality and Pedophilia, and Islam
From: Hazel Hipkins <hipwalk@telusplanet.net>
on 5/31/01 7:51 AM, Gert Hekma at hekma@pscw.uva.nl wrote:
>
> Dear David and others,
>
> My argument concerned mainstream psychiatrists in the Netherlands. The
> first pro-homosexual physicians (Arnold Aletrino, Lucien von Roemer) of
> course objected to an argument that seduction made boys homosexual.
Hello Gert
I found your comments eye-opening. My mother emigrated to Canada from
Utrecht in 1949, has returned to the Netherlands several times, and is very
much concerned with how what she calls the "fabric" of Dutch life is
eroding. I thought that she regretted the passing of pre-WW2 values, and I
have always tried to remind her that we must try to remain open to new
cultural perspectives, new ways of approaching our own thorny issues.
But now - as a lesbian who hasn't always been met with tolerance - I feel
afraid. It seems to me that it would be a great pity if a thousand years of
hard-won democracy/wisdom/tolerance were over-ridden by an imam's passionate
and pious tongue.
I am curious: In your view, does Islam influence the Dutch government's
policy regarding so-called "moral" issues? Do you think that the social
climate in Holland might change as a result of a changing population?
Have you imagined a resolution to what begins to feel like a crisis?
Thank-you for listening and entertaining my questions.
Warm greetings from a cold country...
-Hazel
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 09:24:26 +0200
From: Gert Hekma <hekma@pscw.uva.nl>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Homosexuality and Islam
>I am curious: In your view, does Islam influence the Dutch government's
>policy regarding so-called "moral" issues? Do you think that the social
>climate in Holland might change as a result of a changing population?
>Have you imagined a resolution to what begins to feel like a crisis?
Dear Hazel and others,
In my opinion, the discussion on islam and homosexuality may turn out to be
very benign for muslim and gay/lesbian emancipation. The debate has forced
leading politicians to consider the issue, and to find answers. The answers
they have given (talking to the imams) are not very convincing, but several
groups from the gay and lesbian movement have now more chance to get their
agenda into the social arena: promoting sex topics in schools where they
are largely lacking (Dutch schools pay not much attention to sex education,
the sex education is too often largely biological, and in multi-ethnic
schools teachers fear to discuss sex topics because they are unsure about
the pupils' attitudes). The idea of the queer movement is to press sex
themes into the schools, not (only) in special sex education, but along
other topics such as history, language, geography, literature etc.
At the "ethnic" side, the discussion on homosexuality has also promising
sides: all kinds of ethnic student groups start to discuss (homo)sex, often
mention is being made of the Dutch gay and lesbian ethnic organisations,
boys and girls from ethnic descent get a better chance to realize, act upon
and speak about their sexual desires; and the imams have been forced to
rethink their positions on homosexuality.
At the Dutch white side, we see quite some hypocrisy: they express anger
and anxiety about the "backward" imams, but they have done little to
educate the ethnic minorities on sexual (and other) issues or to take the
challenges of the queer movement really serious (the country is becoming to
some degree multicultural, but remains deeply monosexual i.e. straight).
The tv-interview that started the debate, appears now to have been cut in
such a way that the imam's anti-gay opinion was prominently displayed, but
his rejection of anti-gay violence (which was in the interview) was cut out.
But see for a general overview of the issue my article "A Dutch concert.
Sex Education in Multicultural Schools" in Thamyris 7:1/2 (2000), pp. 249-260.
Best,
Gert Hekma
---------------------------------
---------------------------------
Gert Hekma
Gay and Lesbian Studies
Dpt of Sociology and Anthropology
University of Amsterdam
Oudezijds Achterburgwal 185
1012 DK Amsterdam
Phone: * 31 20 525 2226 or 6278877
Fax: * 31 20 525 3010
Email: hekma@pscw.uva.nl
Website: http://www.pscw.uva.nl/gl
___________________________________________________________________From: "Pat Hawkins" <pat.hawkins@virgin.net>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Origin of syphilis?
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 09:23:21 +0100
Hi Hazel (and Mom)
My knowledge of syphilis is that the exact origin and subsequent spread of
syphilis is a matter of heated debate among medical historians but it seems
to be generally accepted that this sexually transmited disease did not
become widespread till the early sixteenth century.
Information and evidence on its origins are limited to examination of
skeletal remains of those who were possibly infected This is often difficult
to assess.
In 1989 researchers at the University of Pisa found a mummy of an Italian
noblewoman Maria D'Aragona some 450 years after her death. She was a member
of the Italian intellectual and religious circle, would have known
Michaelangelo and clearly demonstrated open sores on her arms containing the
syphilis spirochete. This was tthe first demonstration of syphilis in the
soft tissue of ancient human remains.
(G Fornaciari et al 1989 The Lancet 614 September 9)
In those times it was allegedly called the Neapolitan disease by the French
while the Italians called it the French disease!
I understand the term syphilis was introduced by the Italian physician
Girolamo Frascatorius who wrote a poem about a shepherd boy named Syphylus
who allegedly left the flock of sheep he was meant to be tending for a
little sexual dalliance. As the sheep concerned belonged to Apollo Syphilus
was smitten with sores (of the disease named after him). But all this seems
to be European rather than having South American origins.
Could that be the link to your llamas?
Seriously my understanding is that it is not generally common for disease
organisms to be transmitted between species -it does occur sometimes ( its
called zoonosis when it does) but whether it was transmitted this way is
debatable.
Hope it helps build up some info for you
Best wishes from London England
Pat
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hazel Hipkins" <hipwalk@telusplanet.net>
To: "Histsex:For historians of sexuality" <histsex@listbot.com>
Cc: "Hazel Hipkins" <hipwalk@telusplanet.net>
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 6:36 AM
Subject: [histsex] Origin of syphilis?
> Histsex:For historians of sexuality -
http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah/listinf.htm
>
> --------------------------- ListBot Sponsor --------------------------
> Start Your Own FREE Email List at http://www.listbot.com/links/joinlb
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Hello.
>
> I am not a health professional at all, but have subscribed to this list
> temporarily in hopes of resolving a friendly dispute between my 80-yr old
> mother and myself.
>
> Mom wasn't sure of her sources, but felt quite sure that syphilis was
> introduced to Europe from South America, and was in some way connected
with
> llamas. Her claim seems bizarre to me, but I'd love to be able to tell her
> that there was some truth to it...
>
> I haven't been able to discover much on my own; I recall that Syphilis was
a
> character in a 16th century play, and that he wasn't very sympathetic, but
> I'm not at all sure that he was poxy.
>
> If anyone can shed some light on this matter, we will both very much
> appreciate it. If my question is misdirected (or just silly), please
forgive
> my barging in...
>
> Good night to all from Calgary, Canada
> -Hazel
> >
> >
> >
___________________________________________________________________Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 11:14:42 -0700
From: IIRE <peter.iire@antenna.nl>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Homosexuality and Islam
I'm afraid I can't entirely share Gert Hekma's optimism about the
effects of the imam's anti-gay comments here in Holland. True, gay
immigrant groups have become somewhat more visible, and some Turkish
and Moroccan organizations have made some good statements. But the
main problem I think is not just the hypocrisy that Gert mentions,
but the prevalence of unacknowledged, often largely unconscious
racism in Dutch society against Moroccans and Turks (the largest
Muslim ethnic groups here). As a result of this the public debate is
almost entirely over the issue of whether young Moroccans and Turks
are or are not "educable", i.e. whether we enlightened, liberal,
tolerant Dutch can overcome their backward, ignorant prejudices.
This has been visible in all sorts of comments about Muslims that you
would NEVER hear about anti-gay Christians or Jews. When I lived in
New York and there were campaigns to pass a municipal gay rights
ordinance, Chassidic Jews would come every year to the hearings to
insist that all gays should be stoned to death as required by the
Bible. I never once encountered a public reaction from gays or
straights along the lines of, "Send those Jews to Israel" or "why
don't they go back where they came from"; any such comment would have
obviously generated a storm of protest against anti-Semitism
(rightly, in my opinion). Yet when the Muslim imam made a much milder
comment here (even with his condemnation of anti-gay violence edited
out, as Gert mentions), calls not only for his prosecution (which is
possible under Dutch law) but for his deportation became absolutely
commonplace. As others have pointed out, this has a somewhat chilling
effect on public discussion.
Among the Dutch commentators in this discussion it has also been rare
(not absent, but rare) for anyone to show any knowledge or even
interest in the Islamic world's extraordinary rich history and
experience of same-sex sexualties. If you want to teach Moroccan or
Turkish teenagers about homosexuality, it seems to me, it would be
much more effective to draw on medieval same-sex Arabic and Turkish
love poetry than to lecture them about how they have to conform to
Dutch laws and norms. It would also be useful to study how these
cultures' traditional same-sex sexualties differ from current Western
European ones (e.g. on issues of youth and age, gender roles, "coming
out" as opposed to discretion, marriage, etc.). Yet this is hardly
ever proposed, let alone done.
In a society where particularly Moroccan teenagers are
disprortionately unemployed, marginalized and criminalized, as is the
case in Holland, it is only to be expected that they have developed a
distinctive subculture that gives them a sense of identity and
self-worth. Many aspects of it - rap music etc. - are familiar from
other communties of color in the developed world. But they also want
a Muslim dimension to their identity. For kids born in Holland, who
don't necessarily know all that much about Islam or Islamic culture,
there is a tendency simply to turn Dutch anti-Muslim prejudices
upside down and proudly claim what the surrounding culture condemns.
I'm afraid this has set a dynamic in motion in which anti-gay
attitudes among the most disadvantaged Muslim youth are only
reinforced.
Peter Drucker
___________________________________________________________________Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 18:32:20 +0100 (BST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Noreen=20Giffney?= <stheno_gorgon@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [histsex] Fwd: Next Dublin Queer Studies Meeting
Apologies for cross-posting.
The next meeting of the Dublin Queer Studies Group
will be on Friday 15 June 2001 at 17:00 in the
Centre for Gender and Women's Studies, the Hamilton
Building,Trinity College, Dublin 2. The topic for
discussion will be the work of Judith Butler, with
particular emphasis on the first two chapters of
_Gender Trouble: Feminism and the Subversion of
Identity_ (Routledge: New York and London, 1990), pp
1-78 and 'Imitation and gender insubordination' in
Diana Fuss (ed.), _Inside/Out: Lesbian Theories, Gay
Theories_ (Routledge: New York and London, 1991), pp.
13-31. New members are always welcome. For further
information, please contact: dublin_queer@yahoo.co.uk
___________________________________________________________________From: "Rictor Norton" <norton@rictor.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: [histsex] Queer People Conference
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 19:32:59 +0100
CFP forwarded from another list:
QUEER PEOPLE: negotiations and expressions of homosexuality 1600-1800
At Christ's College, Cambridge
12-13 July, 2002
Plenary Speakers: George Haggerty, Emma Donoghue Susan Lanser
CALL FOR PAPERS
St. Catharine's College in the University of Cambridge and King Alfred's
College, Winchester are hosting an international conference on Friday =
and
Saturday 12 and 13 July 2002, on the experience, representation and =
theory
of female and male homosexuality in the cultural and political life of
early modern Britain. It is hoped that a collection of essays will =
follow
from the conference.
Topics will include:
particular experiences of individuals; the representation of homosexuals =
in
high and low literature; the treatment and punishment of homosexuals; =
the
place of the homosexual in society; the position of homosexuality in
cultural history; interactions between gender and sexuality; the family;
scandal; issues of homosexuality with respect to nationhood, colonialism
and empire; and all aspects of queer theory.
Christ's College was founded in 1439 by William Byngham, when it was =
called
God's House. It was later adopted by Henry VI, then refounded by =
Margaret
Beaufort, mother of Henry VII, when it was renamed Christ's. Happily for
the topic of the conference, Christ's Chapel boasts a fine
seventeenth-century monument to the
relationship between John Finch and Thomas Baines, which has been =
discussed
by Alan Bray
.
Conference organizers: Dr. Caroline Gonda (St Catharine's College,
Cambridge) and Dr. Chris Mounsey (King Alfred's College, Winchester)
Please send proposals for 30-minute papers, by 1 October 2001 to either:
Dr. Chris Mounsey
King Alfred's College
Sparkford Road
Winchester SO22 4NR
Email: Cmouns@aol.com
___________________________________________________________________Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 15:34:15 +0100
From: Ianthe <ianthe@duende.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Homosexuality and Pedophilia
In message <Pine.GSO.4.33.0105290949200.5033-100000@qlink.queensu.ca>,
Elise R Chenier <3erc3@qlink.queensu.ca> writes
>I have been asked to clarify whether or not the link btwn homosexuality
>and pedophilia is new or in some way unique to this period. I notice that
>in _Trials of Masculinity_, Angus McLaren argues that the connection was
>made in the medical literature as early as the late nineteenth century.
>It would help, not hurt, my thesis if I could convincingly argue that
>these pre-WWII medical ideas were popularized in the post-WWII period.
>
>Not being as well-versed in pre-WWII homo history as I'd like, I am hoping
>others might provide some insight into the historical roots of this
>particular issue.
You've read these two, I take it ?
Moral Panic : Changing Concepts of the Child
Molester in Modern America. By Philip Jenkins.
Yale University Press, 1998. 304pp. ISBN 0-300-07387-9.
"Uncontrolled Desires": The Response to the Sexual
Psychopath, 1920-1960. Estelle B. Freedman.
--
Ianthe
___________________________________________________________________Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 13:14:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Elise R Chenier <3erc3@qlink.queensu.ca>
Subject: [histsex] Homosexuality, Pedophilia and Masculinity
Ianthe,
Yes I have, thanks. The conversation around this topic has been very
interesting, especially with respect to the imam in Holland. Stephen
Robertson's reference to his own recently published article "Separating
the Men from the Boys: Masculinity, Psychosexual Development,
and Sex Crime in the United States, 1930s-1960s." Journal of the History
of Medicine and Allied Sciences 56, 1 (January 20012): 3-35 was just what
I was looking for.
Anyone interested in changing models of masculinity in 20thc North America
will also find it very interesting, and I highly recommend it.
Elise Chenier
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Lesley Hall" <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>
Subject: [histsex] Passing on a query re foot-sex
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 13:54:45 +0100
>From my mail-box this week:
'I am currently researching the psycho-sexual aspects of shoe design and
particularly interested in following the connection between foot sex as a
means of safe sex [1], especially during the STD epidemics of the Middle
Ages. I believe there may be a connection with footbinding but so far have
found no tangible
evidence [2]. Would you have any related information , or can you direct me
to further reading.' [as well as the classic work by Rossi on the sex life
of the foot and shoe]
[1] provides a citation to Gianni AJ, Colapietro G Slaby A Melemis SM Bowman
RK 1998 Sexualization of the female
foot as a response to sexually transmitted epidemics: a preliminary study
Psychological Reports 83 491-498. Apparently they consider the C13th the
first great epidemic of STDs, an unusual viewpoint... The epidemic I
associate with C13th is the Black Death. There is, to my mind, a distinction
between evidence for preColumbian syphilis in Europe, and actual epidemics.
[2] apparently 'in the seventeenth century when Italian courtesans
lightly bound their feet to attract the attention of the Regent'
In a subsequent message added that he has been told that 'interfemeral
intercourse was common in ancient times' [interfemoral, I assume - rather
higher up the legs than the feet??]
Any comments, suggestions, further reading would be welcomed.
Many thanks
Lesley
Lesley Hall
lesleyah@primex.co.uk
website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
___________________________________________________________________Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 18:08:20 +0100
From: Hera Cook <hera.cook@btinternet.com>
Subject: [histsex] Penitentials
Hi,
> Pierre Payer's "Sex And The Penitentials" has been mentioned several times recently and
> sounds fascinating. Would it be possible for a historian who works in this period explain
> how penitentials were used, where they were written and what the relevance of this source
> would be to England?
These may be anachronistic questions - forgive my ignorance.
Hera
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 11:39:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Stephen Morris <smmorris58@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Penitentials
The penitentials were handbooks for priests who heard
confessions. They listed av ariety of sins and the
appropriate penances to be assigned for each. They
were first written in British and Celtic Christian
circles (often in Anglo-Saxon) and then spread to the
rest of Europe (in Latin).
They are an amazing source for both social history
(what was considered wrong and where and how eveil it
was) and are still a useful source to deternmine what
a confessor should take relatively seriously or not.
They would be very useful in English history. What
periood in particular were you thinking of, Hera?
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Lesley Hall" <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>
Subject: [histsex] Fw: art songs by gay composers CD
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 21:18:59 +0100
Of possible interest...
Lesley Hall
lesleyah@primex.co.uk
website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
-----Original Message-----
From: darbe <darbe@altavista.net>
We just finished making a CD of art songs written by gay composers from the
19th and early 20th centuries and thought it would be an excellent resource
for your department.
The disc is called ôSongs >From The Age Of The Closetö and features pieces
by:
Peter Ilich Tchaikovsky (1840-1893)
Reynaldo Hahn (1874-1947)
Karol Maciej Szymanowski (1882-1937)
Francis Poulenc (1899-1963)
Charles Tomlinson Griffes (1884-1920)
The CD is a compilation that represents and celebrates gay contributions to
western art song in the "age of the closet." As the second half of the 19th
century marks for many cultural historians the birth of homosexuality as a
category of identity, we chose only to include those artists from the late
19th and early 20th centuries for whom compelling evidence existed regarding
their sexual orientation. The composers presented here showcase an
incredibly rich font of talent, and it is a delight to bring them together.
Their biographies truly are fascinating, and more information about them can
be found on our website.
The performer is Elif Savas, a noted Turkish soprano who is a winner of
several international competitions. The pianist is Martin Hennessy, an
accomplished composer and the founder of Positive Music, a musical ensemble
dedicated to promoting AIDS/HIV awareness and education.
Please check it out at www.elifsavas.com, where there is more information on
biographical resources, as well as sound files and how to get a copy of the
CD. It should make a worthy addition to your. You can order a copy right
from the website or
email us if you have any questions about the disc.
Yours,
Sara Felsen
www.elifsavas.com
darbe@altavista.net
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Lesley Hall" <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>
Subject: [histsex] Fw: Soc Hist Soc Conference CFP
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 21:19:41 +0100
Of potential interest.
Lesley Hall
lesleyah@primex.co.uk
website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
-----Original Message-----
From: Shani D'Cruze <shani@d-cruze.freeserve.co.uk>
Social History Society
Annual Conference, 4-6 January, 2002 - Manchester
Vice and Virtue
This conference will debate these key concepts as they are defined and
challenged within societies and cultures of all periods and regions. Such
debates are also of interest to related disciplines and the organisers see
this as an opportunity to draw together historians and other scholars to
debate a range of historiographical and methodological issues. Proposals
are invited debating definitions, continuities and discontinuities between
such concepts, across societies, cultures, geographical locations and
periods. Themes may include:
Religions and their moral codes, including concepts of Heaven, Hell and
Purgatory
Images of vice and virtue in the arts; literary and other print depictions
Justice and legal codes as upholders of vice and virtue.
Aids to the development of vice and virtue in societies or individuals,
including climate,
location, and tradition
Industry and idleness û work and play, and time management
Income management, personal and corporate: social and employment behaviour
codes
Nations and nationalism - race, gender and class as symbols or signifiers
Sex and celibacy: private and public, including the home as the location of
virtue or vice
Appearance and conspicuous consumption, including shopping; luxury, and
pricing
Philanthropy and charity; virtuous institutions and their antithesis
Censorship and liberalism as agents of vice and virtue
Keynote speakers include: John Garrard, Peter J. Marshall, John K. Walton
After-Dinner Speaker : Professor Asa Briggs
Proposals should consist of title and abstract (around 350 words, and no
more than one side of A4). Proposals from postgraduate students are
particularly welcomed. Submission of sessions or panels of three related
papers (plus chair) are encouraged, and especially those for panels which
would signal engagement between historians working on discrete historical
periods, or for panels exploring links between history and other
disciplines.
Abstracts to: Mrs. Linda Persson, Administrative Secretary, Social History
Society, Furness College, Lancaster University, Bailrigg, Lancaster, LA1 4YG
(Tel: 01524-592605, Fax: 01524 846102; Email: L.Persson@lancaster.ac.uk) by
Monday, 2 July, 2001 (late submissions may be considered). For further
information on the conference, and its location, please visit the Social
History SocietyÆs web-site: http://www.ntu.ac.uk/sochist.
___________________________________________________________________Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 11:29:31 +0000
From: fxxm <fxxm@aspma.com>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Passing on a query re foot-sex
> In a subsequent message added that he has been told that 'interfemeral
> intercourse was common in ancient times' [interfemoral, I assume - rather
> higher up the legs than the feet??]
"Thigh sex," which seems to have been common both as a
hetero- and homosexual activity, extended at least into the
Middle Ages. It is interdicted in several of the
penitentials, as well as in Peter Damian's "Book Of
Gomorrah" c.1050. The latter is available in a translation
by Pierre Payer, and Payer's "Sex And The Penitentials" is a
good starting point to learn more about the former.
--Phil Milstein
___________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 14:39:03 +0100
From: Hera Cook <hera.cook@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Penitentials
Dear Stephen,
Thanks for the reply. I wasn't thinking of a particular period - more gaining a general sense
of the forms English sexual culture has taken . Evidence so often proves to come from France
or Germany - it is lovely to be presented with British and Celtic texts.
Hera
___________________________________________________________________From: "Lesley Hall" <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>
Subject: [histsex] Fw: Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, and Transgender Awareness MonthLecture at NLM
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 19:21:27 +0100
Lesley Hall
lesleyah@primex.co.uk
website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Greenberg <GREENBES@mail.nlm.nih.gov>
To: H-SCI-MED-TECH@H-NET.MSU.EDU <H-SCI-MED-TECH@H-NET.MSU.EDU>; <caduceus-l
<caduceus-l@list.umaryland.edu>; MEDLIB-L@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
<MEDLIB-L@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>; Stephen Greenberg
<GREENBES@mail.nlm.nih.gov>
Date: 07 June 2001 13:43
Subject: Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, and Transgender Awareness MonthLecture at
NLM
>To mark the beginning of the third decade of the AIDS epidemic in the
United States, Ronald Bayer and Gerald Oppenheimer will present a talk, "The
Biography of an Epidemic: An Oral History of Doctors and AIDS," at 2pm on
June 12th, 2001 in the National Library of Medicine's Lister Hill
Auditorium. Bayer and Oppenheimer are the authors of AIDS Doctors: Voices
>From the Epidemic, a new book based on intensive interviews with 76 of the
first generation of doctors drawn to AIDS care, tracing physicians'
experiences from a time when medical helplessness and fear reigned to the
current moment of therapeutic promise.
>
>The Lister Hill Auditorium is located in Building 38A on the National
Institutes of Health campus on Rockville Pike in Bethesda, Maryland. The
program is open to the public: no tickets or reservations are required. Sign
language interpretation will be provided.
>
>For additional information call Stephen Greenberg (301-435-4995) at the
National Library of Medicine. E-mail inquiries can be sent to
>stephen_greenberg@nlm.nih.gov
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 17:49:59 +0200 (MET DST)
From: a2534304@Smail.Uni-Koeln.de
Subject: [histsex] History of Rape
H i s t o r y o f R a p e : A B i b l i o g r a p h y
The bibliography has been completely revised. It moved to another server
and can now be found at:
<http://www-geocities.com/history_guide/horb/horb.html>.
The bibliography contains literature about the history of rape, sexual
child abuse and sexual violence in general. Articles, books and other
tools are listed dealing exclusively or in parts with the topic. Print and
electronic resources are considered. Where possible, links are provided to
sources that are available online, for example, electronic abstracts or
full-texts of print articles.
The compiler is still searching for more articles and books. If you have
information to add or if you found a mistake in the bibliography, please
send an e-mail to Stefan Blaschke: <mailto:a2534304@smail.uni-koeln.de>.
Table of Contents:
Alphabetical Index
Chronological Index
Geographical Index
Topical Index
Research Projects
Other Tools
Stefan Blaschke.
___________________________________________________________________
From: "gottfried heuer" <gottfried.heuer@virgin.net>
Subject: Re: [histsex] History of Rape
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 05:44:54 +0100
I could not get access to the website. Did others have similar problems?
Gottfried Heuer.
___________________________________________________________________Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 11:38:42 +0200 (MET DST)
From: <a2534304@Smail.Uni-Koeln.de>
Subject: Re: [histsex] History of Rape
Sorry, this was my mistake. The correct URL is:
<http://www.geocities.com/history_guide/horb/horb.html>
Stefan Blaschke.
___________________________________________________________________Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 09:16:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mireille Miller-Young <mireille_creates@yahoo.com>
Subject: [histsex] Summer Institute for Sexuality
Hello!
This is Mireille Miller-Young, PhD Canididate in
History at New York University, studying black women
pornography and erotica.
I was wondering if anyone else will be attending the
Summer Institute on Sexuality, Culture and Society at
the Universiteit van Amsterdam this July???
Also, I appreciated the discussion about photography
and anthropology, as well as the souces you all
suggested. My work deals with visual representation,
particularly painting, photography, film and music
videos, and the intersections of technology, sexual
knowledge, and pleasure with race and the black female
body (from Hottentot Venus to Lil' Kim). Any thoughts
on sources, especially special collections (like
Fallaize?) and specific sources on Visual Anthropology
will be appreciated!
Kind regards,
Mireille
___________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 12:36:38 +0200 (MET DST)
From: <a2534304@Smail.Uni-Koeln.de>
Subject: [histsex] Call for Papers
The mailing list "Call for Papers" <http://www.english.upenn.edu/CFP/>
distributed the following CFP that might be of interest for the
subscribers of Histsex.
Islamic Masculinities (no deadline noted; book collection)
<http://www.english.upenn.edu/CFP/archive/Gender-Studies/0229.html>
Further CFPs focussing on gender studies and sexuality can be found in the
archive of the list:
<http://www.english.upenn.edu/CFP/archive/Gender-Studies/>
Stefan Blaschke.
___________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 05:56:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: Stephen Morris <smmorris58@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Sodom and Gomorrah
-Hi.
Was it in this discussion that the reliability of the
English translation of "Sodom and Gomorrah: On the
Everyday Reality andPersecution of Homosexuals in the
Middle Ages" by Bernd-Ulrich Hergemoller was debated?
Could someone who paid more attention than I did recap
and summarize it for me? I just read it and it seems
good but there are no footnotes and some glaring
technical errors struck me; are these problems in the
original or just the (sloppy?) translation?
Thanks.
Stephen
___________________________________________________________________From: "Kees van 't Klooster" <kees@pek.nl>
Subject: [histsex] Frederique & Jim erotic drawings
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 16:47:32 +0200
Dear List Servers,
I am hoping that some of you out there may be able to direct me to any
references you know of the painters Frederique & Jim.From both I found
rather nice but to me obscure erotic drawings.
who can help me further.
an devoted amateur in the history of sex.
kees van 't klooster
the netherlands
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Rictor Norton" <norton@rictor.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Sodom and Gomorrah
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 16:11:52 +0100
Stephen,=20
Although the book was briefly mentioned on the HISTSEX list, the =
discussion you are thinking of occurred on the MEDGAY list, following a =
query I made about it.
=20
--
Rictor Norton, London
mailto:norton@rictor.freeserve.co.uk
http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk
___________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 18:45:49 +0100 (BST)
From: "=?iso-8859-1?q?Michael=20O'Rourke?=" <tranquilised_icon@yahoo.com>
Subject: [histsex] Queer Men Conference Announcement
Queer Men: Historicising Queer Masculinities,
1550-1800
Physics Theatre, Newman House, St. Stephens Green,
Dublin
Saturday 21st July
10 a.m-5.30 p.m
A GATHERING OF THE MOST RECENT SCHOLARSHIP ON THE
HISTORICISATION OF MASCULINITY AND THE HISTORY OF
HOMOSEXUALITY.
Speakers:
George Rousseau( De Montfort and Oxford)"
Homoplatonic,Homodepressed,Homomorbid:the Genesis of
the Gay Patient in The Early Modern Period"
George Haggerty( University of California, Riverside)
"Male Love and Friendship in the Eighteenth Century"
Alan Bray( An Historian and honorary Research Fellow
of Birkbeck College, University of London)
"Catholicism, the Family, and Friendship: A Rite for
Blessing Friendship in Traditional Christianity"
Randolph Trumbach (Baruch College, CUNY) " The
Heterosexual Man in the Eighteenth Century and his
Queer Interactions"
Robert Tobin (Whitman College, Washington) " Masculine
queers: Classicism, Storm and Stress, and 'Virile'
Greek Love"
Jeffrey Masten (Northwestern University, Evanston)"
Histories of the Language: Queer Philology, Queer
History"
Mario DiGangi(Lehman College, CUNY) "Un-Queering the
Renaissance"
Alan Stewart(Birkbeck College, London) "Queer
men/Homosexuals in History"
Nick Radel (Furman University) "The 'Voluntary
Prostitute': Sixteenth and Seventeenth Century Satire
and the Castlehaven Case Revisited"
Jody Greene ( University of California, Santa Cruz)
"Transgender Translation and Neoclassical Castration:
(Per)versions of Sappho, 1711-1713.
For more information please peruse the website:
Website: http://www.ucd.ie/~werrc/queermen.html
E-mail the organizers:
werrc@ ucd.ie
Michael O'Rourke: tranquilised_icon@yahoo.com
Katherine O'Donnell: Katherine.ODonnell@ucd.ie
Ph: +353 1 716 8581
Fax: +353 1 716 1195
___________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 18:54:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: Haiduk Press <haidukpress@yahoo.com>
Subject: [histsex] Book announcement: "Lovers' Legends, the 'Gay' Greek Myths"
Hello,
Last August I circulated here a manuscript for this
work, and after numberless revisions the finished book
is expected out in mid-summer. I would be happy to
make reviewers' copies available at no cost to readers
of this list, in exchange for useful feedback and/or
pithy comments for attribution.
Andrew
=======================================
Book Announcement: "Lovers' Legends, the 'Gay' Greek
Myths" is a compendium of myths containing homoerotic
elements, restored from primary sources in
translation. While the work is not aimed at a
scholarly readership, it is meant to be authentic in
its essentials, and to present unified versions of
stories which until now have been given short shrift
for reasons which need not be enumerated here. At
this, the pre-publication stage, the author is seeking
to submit the work to a peer-review process.
Interested
readers are requested to send an e-mail to:
haidukpress@yahoo.com indicating their interest and
including a shipping address for hard copy.
___________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 00:57:14 -0700
From: John Lauritsen <j.lauritsen@verizon.net>
Subject: [histsex] Review copy
John Lauritsen
78 Bradford Street
Provincetown
MA 02657
(508) 487-8369
I'd like to receive a review copy of your new book, _Lovers'
Legends, the 'Gay' Greek Myths_. Above is my mailing address.
John Lauritsen, Provincetown
Author: _A Freethinker's Primer of Male Love_ (Provincetown 1998).
Co-author: _The Early Homosexual Rights Movement (1864-1935)_
(New York 1974; Revised 2nd Edition Ojai, California 1995).
___________________________________________________________________Date: 12 Jun 2001 09:05:57 -0000
From: "Histsex:For historians of sexuality" <histsex-owner@listbot.com>
Subject: [histsex] Admin and etiquette
As it is coming up to the summer and many list members may be away from
their mailboxes for longer or shorter periods, I thought I would refresh
people's memory about the procedure for unsubscribing - unfortunately
listbot.com does not support a 'hold mail' option, and it is therefore
necessary to unsub and resub if you do not want your mailbox to clog up.
To unsubscribe, send a blank email to histsex-unsubscribe@listbot.com (not
to the list and not to me); you can also unsub via the list homepage,
http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah/listinf.htm
If your service provider has changed your email address, however, you may
have difficulties as the system may not recognise you (since it uses the
address as an identifier). In such cases (but not for routine unsubbing),
do contact me either at histsex-owner@listbot.com or lesleyah@primex.co.uk
and I will remove you manually. To resubscribe, send a blank email to
histsex-subscribe@listbot.com; you can also do this via list homepage, URL
above.
When responding to offers such as the recent one of review copies, I
suggest that requests should be sent directly to the individual offering
them rather than the list.
I would also like to remind list members to change the subject line when
the subject under discussion mutates, and to snip unnecessary verbiage
from previous messages quoted. Thank you.
Lesley
histsex-owner@listbot.com
lesleyah@primex.co.uk
___________________________________________________________________ From: "Alexander David Fairgrieve" <s9800905@chelt.ac.uk>
Subject: [histsex] change of address
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 18:06:07 +0100
old address - s9800905@chelt.ac.uk
New address - givemeabigboy@hellosailor.co.uk
(don't laugh its supposed to be serious)
Thank you for your time and patients.
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Alexander David Fairgrieve" <s9800905@chelt.ac.uk>
Subject: RE: [histsex] change of address
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 18:21:19 +0100
I do apologise to everyone. Being a student You would have though I could
handle a computer.
So may I take this opportunity to say what a wounderful experience this has
been, reading so many thought provoking ideas and facts. I look forward with
much intrest to what is to come.
Alexander Fairgrieve
LGBT Co-Executive Cheltenham College of HE
___________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 06:00:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Stephen Morris <smmorris58@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [histsex] change of address
LOL!!!
Serious?!?!!?
--- Alexander David Fairgrieve <s9800905@chelt.ac.uk>
wrote:
> old address - s9800905@chelt.ac.uk
>
> New address - givemeabigboy@hellosailor.co.uk
> (don't laugh its supposed to be serious)
>
> Thank you for your time and patients.
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 17:49:19 +0100 (BST)
From: "=?iso-8859-1?q?Michael=20O'Rourke?=" <tranquilised_icon@yahoo.com>
Subject: [histsex] Del LaGrace Volcano in Dublin
Del LaGrace Volcano
Clitoratae:Sexualities is delighted to be able to
offer two nights of transgressive queer culture with
the gender variant visual artist, Del LaGrace
Volcano.
Del LaGrace (formally the lesbian photographer
Della Grace) has produced some of the decades most
revealing and the most sexual of contemporary
images:
Lesbian Boys and Other Inverts
Xenomorphosis
Hermaphrodyke:Self Portraits of Desire
Kathy Acker
TransGenital Landscapes
Gender Optional.
Please link to the L.inc address below for details on
the events 'Journey Intersex' and 'Sublime Mutations':
http://www.iol.ie/~linc/del.html
We would particularly like to welcome those of you
living with transgressive gender:sex identities, and
queer theorists and art/activists to contribute to the
discussion sections of the programs.
Please note that we were unable to secure a venue with
disabled access (Irish Film Centre). We apologise for
this.
Clitoratae:Sexualities can be contacted
at:clitoratae@hotmail.com or (00353) (0) 879161065
___________________________________________________________________Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 06:00:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Stephen Morris <smmorris58@yahoo.com>
Subject: re: [histsex] glaring errors in Bernd-Ulrich Hergemoller
-Dear Rictor:
Thank you so much for the summary of the recent debate
concerning "Sodom and Gomorrah." I appreciate the
copies of the actual discussion you forwarded as well.
In addition to the typos, silly complicated
translations, and such that you mentioned the "glaring
errors" that made me want to throw the book across the
room were in the 3 page list of "same-sex couples" on
pp. 71-73.
Maybe he just meant to provide a list of "sanctified
couples" from the calendar of saints (and just what
ARE those numbers that follow each pair of names?!).
But when I first read it, I had the impression this
was supposed to be a list of same-sex pairs and there
are several mixed sex pairs to say nothing of trios
and larger groups of martyrs. When I saw Priscilla
and Aquila (the couple St. PAul was honored to call
co-workers and Priscilla is credited by some with the
authorship of the Epistle to the Hebrews -- or with
teaching Apollos, another possible author, everything
he knew) listed, I thought, "This guy knows not
whereof he speaks!"
Let me know if you thnk I misread the intention of
this list or not.
Stephen
___________________________________________________________________Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 08:26:27 +0100 (BST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?sabya=20mishra?= <sabyasachi09@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Summer Institute for Sexuality
Dear Young,
I will be intere\sted in knowing about the Summer
School of Sexuality.. I am a tacher at the Indian
School of Mines. My research revolves around the
problem of Venereal Diseases in the British Army in
India. I will love to join a discussion forum where
people are interested in this theme.
i hope you will have some suf\ggestions.
looking forward to hear from you,
regards
sabya sachi r. mishra
indian school of mines
dhanbad
india
___________________________________________________________________From: "Peter Boston" <peterboston@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: [histsex] website
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 22:16:26 +1200
Dear list members,
I'm not sure about the propriety of self publicity, but I've set up a =
small website, which I hope to devote to material on the history of =
sexuality in New Zealand. I've posted two old conferences papers, and a =
few photographs. I will add more material as I have time.
The conference papers deal with penology and unnatural offences in early =
twentieth century NZ. They are contained within the 'overview' page.
The link is:
http://communities.msn.com/HistoryofSexualityinNewZealand=20
Thanks
Peter Boston
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 10:39:44 +0000
From: Dr Crozier <ucgacro@ucl.ac.uk>
Subject: [histsex] source request...
Dear All,
I am hoping that someone out there will be able to help me. I am trying to
locate a the details of a paper on algophilia, by XXX Cox, in Alienist and
neurologist, 1883. Title unknown, but cited in Dimitry Stefanowsky,
"Passivism-a variety of sexual perversion," trans with notes by James
Kiernan, Alienist and Neurologist, Oct. 1892 [originally in Archives de
l'Anthropologie Criminelle, May, 1892], pp. 650-7.
For anyone interested, the source has a case history in which a man asked
to be stripped bare to the waist, and trampled on by two or three
over-weight prostitutes in high-heeled boots for several hours. Quite an
early example of this in the sexology literature!
I would very much appreciate the first name and the title, as well as the
page numbers of the A&N, if any one has access to this journal. It is not
at the Wellcome Library.
I hope all is well.
Cheerio, Ivan
Ivan Crozier,
Research Fellow
Wellcome Centre for the History of Medicine at UCL
24 Eversholt St
London
NW1 1AD
email: i.crozier@ucl.ac.uk
'ignorance is the first requisite of the
historian--ignorance, which simplifies
and clarifies, which selects and omits,
with a placid perfection unobtainable by
the highest art.'
--Lytton Strachey
___________________________________________________________________From: Kazetnik@aol.com
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 08:04:13 EDT
Subject: [histsex] Contact info sought
A plea.... Does anyone know the institutional affiliations of K. B. Roberts
and J D W Tomlinson, authors ofThe Fabric of the Body: European Traditions of
Anatomical Illustration?
Thanks.
Chris White
___________________________________________________________________Date: 24 Jun 2001 12:48:28 -0000
From: "Histsex:For historians of sexuality" <histsex-owner@listbot.com>
Subject: [histsex] IMPORTANT: Listbot terminating free listservs
I have just heard that the free Listbot service is being terminated, as of
August. I am therefore proposing to transfer the list to topica.com (as
histsex@topica.com). Please be alert for any joining messages - although
there is a facility for importing existing list addresses I imagine some
form of confirmation message requiring response will be sent out. Please
note that this has not yet happened so don't send any messages yet to new
address! I hope to get preliminaries completed today, but this may be
optimistic.
I apologise for any confusion which is likely to result from this period
of upheaval. Announcements will be sent out to other lists and will of
course be noted on the list homepage and anywhere else list information is
posted.
List archives: I will be (gradually) converting these to HTML documents
and posting them on my website.
Thanks to everyone in advance for patience during a trying time.
Lesley
histsex-owner@listbot.com
lesleyah@primex.co.uk
___________________________________________________________________
Date: 25 Jun 2001 19:16:32 -0000
From: "Histsex:For historians of sexuality" <histsex-owner@listbot.com>
Subject: [histsex] Change of listserver
Invitation messages should be going out more or less simultaneously with
this to ask existing list-members to resubscribe to the new list at
histsex@topica.com. You should respond to those messages to rejoin, NOT
this one.
Many thanks for all kind remarks about Histsex!
Lesley
lesleyah@primex.co.uk
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Brian Dempsey" <editor@scolag.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [histsex]
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 12:11:33 +0100
Re change of list server or whatever - thanks to you Lesley for doing all
the work!
Brian
___________________________________________________________________
From: Lesley Hall <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Change of listserver
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 08:44:59 GMT
p://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah/listinf.htm
>
> Topica asks me to register on their website. Is
this necessary to be on
> this newsgroup? Will History of Sex continue as an
Email list or will we
> need to go to the Topica site to participate?
According to the preferences I have set for the list,
Histsex will continue as an email list on Topica.
However, if you wish to set personal posting
preferences (e.g. digest, web access only etc) you
will need to do this on the Topica website. And will
thus need to register there.
Hope this is clear - there is bound to be a certain
amount of muddle and confusion in this transitional
period. Plus, I am still familiarising myself with the
new procedures at Topica!
Lesley
Lesley Hall
lesleyah@primex.co.uk
___________________________________________________________________Date: 27 Jun 2001 11:21:12 -0000
From: "Histsex:For historians of sexuality" <histsex-owner@listbot.com>
Subject: [histsex] Transfer to Topica.com
As of noon today, barely half the existing list members have subscribed to
the relocated list at topica.com. Please could list members either respond
to the invitation message they should have been automatically sent on
Monday, or send a blank email to histsex-subscribe@topica.com The sooner
you do this the sooner discussions can resume in the expectation that
everyone is in the same cyber-space.
Thanks
Lesley
Lesley Hall
lesleyah@primex.co.uk
(messages to histsex-owner@listbot.com should continue to be forwarded for
a month or so)
___________________________________________________________________From: Mal123nash@aol.com
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 13:37:34 EDT
Subject: [histsex] Ulrichs: Bremen: Honor for Gay Rights Activist
Ulrichs: Bremen: Honor for Gay Rights Activist
Dear Friends,
Karl Heinrich Ulrichs now has a square named after him in Bremen. For
details, see:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl3/celebration2000/bremeneng.html
With best wishes,
Mike (and Paul)
http://www.angelfire.com/fl3/celebration2000
Karl Heinrich Ulrichs: First Gay Activist
http://www.angelfire.com/fl3/celebration2000/memory.html
Karl Heinrich Ulrichs: Memory Book 2000: A Festschrift
http://www.angelfire.com/fl3/uraniamanuscripts
Urania Manuscripts: Gay History in Translation
___________________________________________________________________From: "Pablo Ben" <benpablo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [histsex] IMPORTANT: Listbot terminating free listservs
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 17:59:38 -0000
Dear Lesley:
Thanks for mantaining the list and the work it implies. Should we get in the
new list right now or we still wait. I don`t understand.
Thanks a lot.
Pablo Ben
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 05:55:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Stephen Morris <smmorris58@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [histsex] IMPORTANT: Listbot terminating free listservs
Lesley,
Thank you SO MUCH for all the work involved in
maintaining our cozy little on-line family!
Stephen
___________________________________________________________________From: MillerJimE@aol.com
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 20:09:08 EDT
Subject: Re: [histsex] Change of listserver
Topica asks me to register on their website. Is this necessary to be on
this newsgroup? Will History of Sex continue as an Email list or will we
need to go to the Topica site to participate?
Thanks for any info.
Jim Miller
___________________________________________________________________
Date: 29 Jun 2001 09:04:15 -0000
From: "Histsex:For historians of sexuality" <histsex-owner@listbot.com>
Subject: [histsex] Moving the list
The transfer to topica.com is gradually getting there, but a significant
number of list members have not yet subscribed at the new address. While
some of this may be due to people being away from their email, please
could I urge listmembers either to reply to the automated invitation to
join sent on Monday, or to send a blank email to
histsex-subscribe@topica.com.
I have had one or two people experiencing problems in responding to the
automatic invite, which was generated by importing existing email
addresses from the listbot.com database; this is probably due to some
mismatch between these addresses and the ones from which response was
sent. If this happens, try sending a blank email to
histsex-subscribe@topica.com instead.
Lesley
lesleyah@primex.co.uk
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2001 11:43:16 -0700
From: John Lauritsen <j.lauritsen@verizon.net>
Subject: [histsex] Gender in Donne's Poems
[The following review appeared in the James White Review about
five years ago. Many of the issues raised here are relevant
to recent debates over the sexuality of Percy Bysshe Shelley:
above all, the tendency of critics and biographers to force a poet
and his work into a mold of exclusive heterosexuality. I wish to
emphasize that George Klawitter in his book, and I in my review,
focussed on Donne's work rather than his "sexual identity". It is
wrong that for four centuries some of Donne's greatest poems have
been misinterpreted. -- JL]
The Enigmatic Narrator: The Voicing of Same-Sex Love in the Poetry
of John Donne
By George Klawitter
Peter Lang; New York, Washington, DC/Baltimore, San Francisco,
Bern, Frankfurt am Main, Berlin, Vienna, Paris; 1994.
ISBN 0-8204-2491-9, $40, 285 pages.
Reviewed by John Lauritsen
The seminal Metaphysical Poet, John Donne (1572-1631), had
the reputation of being discreetly wild in his youth: a womanizer
and lover of fashionable company. Born into a good family, some
of whose members had been persecuted for adhering to the Roman
Catholic faith, he was educated in philosophy and law at
Cambridge, Oxford, and Lincoln's Inn. He fell in love and eloped
with Anne More, who bore him twelve children. Discovery of their
secret marriage ruined Donne's career at court, and led to many
years of poverty. Converting to Anglicanism, Donne was ordained
in 1615, and only six years later became Dean of St. Paul's
Cathedral and the most influential preacher of his time. His
sermons are among the most celebrated in the English language.
All of the above is true. But the received image of Donne
as a man whose love life involved only women, progressing from
lesser to greater respectability, has now been detonated by George
Klawitter, who makes a strong case that some of his greatest love
poems may express the love of one man for another.
Donne is a difficult poet, and the book does not make for
light reading. George Klawitter has written a serious, scholarly
book. With assurance he employs the formidable tools of present-
day literary criticism. In addition to bibliography, notes, and
indices, the book has a series of analytical appendices dealing
with such issues as poem inclusions, sequences, and gender
attributions in various editions and manuscripts.
Rather than recounting intricate explications of intricate
poems, I'll summarize the overall conclusions that follow from
Klawitter's analysis: Few if any of the Songs and Sonnets (written
in Donne's youth) are unambiguously heterosexual. In almost half
of these poems, both narrator and love-object are genderless. To
use Klawitter's apt word, the genders of the characters in the
poems, and the narrator's own proclivities, are "enigmatic".
However, once a reader is open to the possibility that both the
narrator and the object of his affections may be male, he
recognizes unmistakable passages of all-male love.
In the first chapter, Klawitter discusses verse letters
written from Donne to other young men, and one of the replies
written to him. Despite the arcane quality of many allusions, the
letters are playful, seductive, and occasionally passionate; they
go beyond mere friendship. Some of the opening lines are
marvelous: one addressed to Sir Henry Wotton begins, "Sir, more
than kisses, letters mingle Soules." One to Mr. T.W. [Thomas
Woodward] -- "All haile sweet Poet, more full of more strong fire"
-- appears, in a convoluted fashion, to be saying that his love
for the physical attributes of T.W. has now been augmented by a
love for the young man's intellectual attributes.
In the third chapter, Klawitter examines a relatively
unknown poem, "Sapho to Philaenis". The first problem is with the
title, which was not written by Donne himself, but by a later
editor, who apparently recognized that the lovers in the poem are
of the same sex, and that therefore a lesbian title was called
for. The same sex, yes, but male or female? Read with an
unprejudiced mind, it is clear that the person addressed is male;
he is explicitly compared to gods (not goddesses), and is
counseled to abstain from a pederastic relationship with "some
soft boy". Thus, a passionately erotic relationship between two
men has been bowdlerized through a spurious title into a more
acceptable lesbian relationship. The lesson is that caution is
called for when confronting gender in Donne's poems, and that a
female presence should never simply be assumed.
Although complexity is an essential characteristic of
metaphysical poetry, it often seems that Donne is deliberately
arcane or cryptic when gender rears its head. In Klawitter's
words:
This Donnean narrator speaks a multi-layered language
that dives beneath words to hide meaning in convoluted
syntax that requires as much labor to untwist today as was
required in the century in which it was spun. This is a
playful narrator who slips masks on and off with the ease of
a chameleon changing color, and just when we think we
appreciate the narrator and his audience and his message, we
become plagued with doubts: could Donne also have meant
something quite different?
The gender enigmas in Donne's poetry may result, not only
from playfulness, but from a rational instinct for self-
preservation. The Statute of 1533, which Klawitter quotes,
stipulated that those found guilty of "the detestable and
abominable Vice of Buggery committed with mankind or beast" should
be put to death, as well as suffering the loss of all their
worldly goods. However tender, playful, and even campy some of
the Songs and Sonnets may be, we should never forget that they
were written in the shadow of the scaffold. At the end of the
16th century, as now, male love was informed by the presence of
Death. The use of code and camouflage was more than
understandable.
Many years ago, when studying Donne in a college poetry
course, I did a double-take over some of the lines in "The
Blossome". After some disparaging remarks about women in
general -- their inability to appreciate "a naked thinking heart,
that makes no show" -- Donne (addressing his own heart) concludes
the poem with a paean to male relationships:
Meet mee at London, then,
Twenty dayes hence, and thou shalt see
Mee fresher, and more fat, by being with men,
Than if I had staid still with her and thee,
For Gods sake, if you can, be you so too:
I would give you
There, to another friend, whom wee shall finde
As glad to have my body, as my minde.
For some reason Klawitter chooses not to analyze one of
Donne's best known poems, "The Flea", a charming blend of
seduction, camp, and "metaphysics". Nowhere does the poem make
explicit the genders of the narrator and the person he is
addressing. It begins with the description of a flea which has
drawn blood from both of them:
Marke but this flea, and marke in this,
How little that which thou deny'st me is;
It suck'd me first, and now sucks thee,
And in this flea, our two bloods mingled bee....
One notes the words "suck'd" and "sucks", which probably had
exactly the same meaning four hundred years ago as today. The
Donnean narrator argues that, since their bloods are already
mingled, yielding to his sexual entreaties would be a trivial step
forward. Then, observing that his friend is preparing to crush
the flea with his fingernail, the narrator begs him (or her?) to
refrain on the grounds that the flea represents a "mariage bed"
and a "mariage temple" for the two of them.
Alas! The friend purples his nail with the flea. The
narrator then turns this to his advantage by arguing that this is
even more reason for the person addressed to yield. To my ears,
the tone of "The Flea" is entirely consistent with a highly
intelligent young man seducing another, though this is admittedly
subjective. However, the giveaway is the final three lines:
'Tis true, then learne how false, feares bee;
Just so much honor, when thou yeeld'st to mee,
Will wast, as this flea's death tooke life from thee.
Exactly what "honor" would be at stake for a young male
being seduced by another male? At most, the honor of not breaking
the law and the honor of not violating a theological taboo and a
social convention. However, if the two friends are discreet, and
if they (as students of philosophy) are not in thrall to taboos,
then the honor problem is not insuperable.
In sharp contrast, the issue of "honor" makes no sense if
the object of seduction is a female. If the putative female be a
virgin, then the question of honor is potent indeed; the
Elizabethans took virginity seriously, and the loss of virginity
eliminated the possibility of a good marriage. If the putative
female be a married woman, then the question of adultery arises,
and the question of honor would involve, among other things, the
contractual rights of the husband. If the putative female be a
whore, then there would be no honor to lose and no need for
seduction, and the radiant intellectuality of the poem would be
rendered otiose. And one should not forget that there were no
female students at Oxford, Cambridge, or Lincoln's Inn.
Klawitter examines in detail a number of poems that only
make sense when understood as involving all-male relationships.
These poems portray a masculine world, though sometimes with a
sensitive and even feminine narrator. A strong theme is the
powerful attraction of equals, the element of friendship in love
relationships. These poems, which have consistently been
misinterpreted by critics, include some of Donne's greatest works.
"Aire and Angels" has always been a problem poem for
critics, because they persist in assuming that the person
addressed is a female, although the poem contains not the
slightest hint that this is so. The poem begins with, and
sustains, a tone of tenderness and rapture, right up to the final
three lines, which are traditionally interpreted as being an
insult to womankind in general and to the woman allegedly being
addressed:
Just such disparitie
As is twixt Aire and Angells purity,
'Twixt womens love, and mens will ever bee.
If the person addressed be a woman, then the final lines are
in jarring contradiction to the rest of the poem. But if another
man is being addressed, there is no contradiction; the poem as a
whole makes perfect sense. The narrator's beloved, having
previously been compared to an angel (which in biblical tradition
is male), is told that male love -- the love they enjoy -- is more
pure and more spiritual than love that involves women. One may
regard the sentiment as politically incorrect, by the standards of
present-day feminism, but it is nevertheless the point of the
poem.
One of Donne's tenderest poems is "The Anniversarie". Read
without the blinders of heterosexual convention, it clearly
depicts the first anniversary of an affair between two young men,
who look forward to growing old together in love and friendship.
The maleness of both characters is indicated by referring to them
as "Princes" and as "Kings". The elements of mutuality and
equality inform the entire poem. The poignancy of the final lines
lies in a paradox: the fervent expression of happiness and
confidence is offset by the need forever to keep the relationship
secret:
Here upon earth, we'are Kings, and none but wee
Can be such Kings, nor of such subjects bee.
Who is so safe as wee? where none can doe
Treason to us, except one of us two.
True and false feares let us refraine,
Let us love nobly, and live, and adde againe
Yeares and yeares unto yeares, till we attaine
To write threescore: this is the second of our raigne.
After finishing The Enigmatic Narrator, I immediately began
reading or re-reading all of Donne's poems, and it was a
revelation. Freed from the previously obligatory heterosexual
paradigm, poem after poem sprang to life. Donne became a much
warmer, a much less cerebral poet.
Admirers of Donne's poetry will want to obtain this book.
If the price seems a bit high, a request to an appropriate library
would be in order.
# # #
John Lauritsen, independent scholar living in Provincetown.
Author: __A Freethinker's Primer of Male Love__ (1998).
Editor & Publisher: Plato: __The Banquet__ --
Translated by Percy Bysshe Shelley (2001).
john_lauritsen@post.harvard.edu
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Paul R Marks" <P.Marks@flinders.edu.au>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Gender in Donne's Poems
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 14:25:57 +0930
I was only guessing about the legal reform from Brian's email address.
It suggests he is the/an editor for ScoLAG
see:
http://www.scolag.org/
Paul Marks
Legal Studies
Department of Cultural Studies
Flinders University
G.P.O Box 2100
Adelaide 5001
Australia
Ph: 61 8 8201 3847
E-mail: P.Marks@flinders.edu.au
__________________________
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Rictor Norton" <norton@rictor.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Gender in Donne's Poems
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 22:35:10 +0100
In 1993 eighty-five-year-old Elsie Duncan-Jones revealed that when she was
helping Dame Helen Gardiner compile her exemplary 1965 edition of The
Elegies and Songs and Sonnets of John Donne, Elsie suggested that the real
"marriage of souls" celebrated in "The Anniversarie" was that of the poet
and John King, chaplain to Sir Thomas Egerton, for whom Donne worked as a
secretary. "Helen said: 'Forget it'."
--
Rictor Norton, London
norton@rictor.freeserve.co.uk
http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk
___________________________________________________________________
Date: 2 Jul 2001 09:07:35 -0000
From: "Histsex:For historians of sexuality" <histsex-owner@listbot.com>
Subject: [histsex] Moving to Topica: Further nagging
Approximately a quarter of list members have still not resubscribed to the
list at its new address, histsex@topica.com (i.e. rather too many for me
to send individual nudging notes). Might I remind people that the move of
individual names to the new list is NOT automatic: you do have to opt-in,
either by responding to the invitation to join message sent out last
Monday, by sending a blank email to histsex-subscribe@topica.com, or
subscribing via the list homepage,
http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah/listinf. At the moment there is
clearly a good deal of confusion with some people sending messages to one
list and some to the other. I would like to set a definite date when the
move to histsex@topica.com will take place and I can delete
histsex@listbot.com
Thanks
Lesley
lesleyah@primex.co.uk
___________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 11:58:29 +0100
From: Hera Cook <hera.cook@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Gender in Donne's Poems
Rictor wrote -
In 1993 eighty-five-year-old Elsie Duncan-Jones revealed that when she was
helping Dame Helen Gardiner compile her exemplary 1965 edition of The
Elegies and Songs and Sonnets of John Donne, Elsie suggested that the real
"marriage of souls" celebrated in "The Anniversarie" was that of the poet
and John King, chaplain to Sir Thomas Egerton, for whom Donne worked as a
secretary. "Helen said: 'Forget it'."
Hi Rictor,
Thanks for another interesting comment. Do you think Helen meant by 'forget it' - 'that maybe
this is true but we should not use the information', or Helen meant 'what a ridiculous idea,
forget it.' ??? The implications seem rather different to me. The first meaning suggests
concealment and hypocricy, the second meaning suggests that the idea seemed inconceiveable to
her.
These are very different responses to homosexuality and imply a different sexual attitude.
And also where did the quote come from?
regards,
Hera
Rictor Norton wrote:
From: "Rictor Norton" <norton@rictor.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Gender in Donne's Poems
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 18:39:28 +0100
She meant "Forget it" in the former sense. You have to read it in a
"forceful-lady-voice". The remark was noted by Elsie Duncan-Jones in an
interview in the literary pages of one of the London newspapers in 1993, I
(alas) forget the exact source, probably The Guardian.
--
Rictor Norton, London
norton@rictor.freeserve.co.uk
___________________________________________________________________From: "Brian Dempsey" <editor@scolag.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [histsex] Gender in Donne's Poems
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 00:41:21 +0100
Thank goodness, a non-moronic messsage!
Ah, but then one finds it is from 1996.
Is there any intelligent life out there? I don't think that an old book
review from five years is such hot stuff.
I wish I was thick as shit and then I could get a job in a university along
with the rest of you. If I really didn't now which way was up then I could
sell myself to a drug company.
"Sadly" it seems I work too hard, am working class, and, horrors of horrors,
have a (little) penis, so I will never be able to break into the foul
middle-class retard circles of academia.
And yet, strangely, somehow I find I am not so concerened with fitting in to
the mold.
If you are offended, sorry - go fuck yourself in your middle class
priviledged world. As a parasite you are unable to take effective action -
see me and we can work something out.
Night, night retards.
Brian
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 13:18:27 +1200
From: "Walter Cook" <Walter.Cook@natlib.govt.nz>
Subject: RE: [histsex] Gender in Donne's Poems
Brian, What on earth was all that about, or did I miss out on something, or am I just moronic. And what is wromg with something written five years ago ? The stainless steel "Cylinda" series designed by Arn Jacobsen in the 1960s have ten times more quality in terms of materials, solidity, in other words, substance, than any of the tacky tinny post modern items made by Allissi in more recent years
Walter
___________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 12:18:34 +0900
From: Paul R Marks <P.Marks@flinders.edu.au>
Subject: RE: [histsex] Gender in Donne's Poems
Maybe Brian had a bad day at the office.
Legal reform is an arduous task.
Paul Marks
Legal Studies
Department of Cultural Studies
Flinders University
G.P.O Box 2100
Adelaide 5001
Australia
Ph: 61 8 8201 3847
E-mail: P.Marks@flinders.edu.au
__________________________
___________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 16:27:13 +1200
From: "Walter Cook" <Walter.Cook@natlib.govt.nz>
Subject: RE: [histsex] Gender in Donne's Poems
I agree, attempting legal reform would send anyone round the twist.
But his statement (like the poems of Donne) is a bit ambiguous. Is this the outburst of a political activist, or a frustrated cruiser, or both, or neither.
I do like his style. He sounds more Australian than English. What part of the world is he legally reforming in ?
Walter
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